134. PY NUMBER
135. J27 WHIM/ROOM/SPACE IN TILLER/RUDDER
136. J25 PETROL INBOARD
137. J25 MARKS I & II
138. J25 CRACKS IN HULL
139. SEAMASTER
140. SL 400 SEA TOILET
141. RUDDER PROBLEM - WHATEVERNEXT !!!
142. J25 COST OF BUYING
143. HEAVE-TO ISSUES
144. J27 ITS CURTAINS FOR J27
145. J27 MAINSAIL SIZE
146. J27 PROPSHAFTS/PROPS/RUDDER WEEP
147. J21 WOT, NO RUDDER!
148. "SHAKIN" PROPSHAFT
149. J22 TWO MORE BEGINNER QUESTIONS
150. J27 RUDDERS
151. J27 HULL EPOXYING
152. J21 OUTBOARD
153. J22 KEEL
154. J25 GOOSENECK FITTING
155. J22 RUDDER/TILLER
156. THE HEAT IS OFF
157. TIAMO?/F-BATTENED/STICKYNESS
158. J25 RIGGING
159. J22 ADVICE ON BUYING
160. J22 RIGGING
161. KEEL TURNING BALL
162. SMELLY FEET
163. J22 BROKEN MAST - WHAT TO DO?
164. PERKINS FUEL WATER SEPERATOR
165. J23 STANCHIONS
166. J27 RUDDERS.....AGAIN
167. J25 - PROBLEM WITH MY NUTS!
168. RUBBING STRAKE
169. J22 KEEL HANGERS
170. J27 BUYING ADVICE
171. J25 GUARD RAILS
172. SL400 (HEADS I WIN)
173. J27 MORE RUDDER INFO
174. J25 TOWING A J25
175. J25 BILGE KEEL RACING HANDICAP
176. J27 STEPS
177. J27 MAINSAIL SIZE
178. J25 GEL COAT
179. J27 HOLDING TANK
180. PICTURE QUESTION
181. J22 SPINAKER POLES
182. AVOIDING ACTION
183. SOGGY RUDDERS
184. FLOWER POT HEATER
185. J25 ANTI FOULING
186. J27 REVIEW
187. J25 WATER IN THE HULL
188. J27 RE-ENGINE
189. J25 TOP DECK/FADING

134. PY NUMBER
Posted on 28/4/2003 at 00:16:13 AM by ian reid
I am thinking of getting a Jag 22. As a guide to the reletive speeds of cruisers in my price range I was trying to find the approx py for the jag 22. Anyone know any sites that list py's for cruisers. Tried the RYA site but nothing obvious there.

Posted on 28/4/2003 at 06:56:37 PM by Paul
The RYA have stopped listing portsmouth numbers for all Jaguars apart from the 21, along with a load of other boats, because they said they were no longer getting sufficient returns to make a good assessment of what the yardstick should be. They want to encourage more clubs where these boats are racing to return results and if they do, then a number for those boats will be reinstated.
HOWEVER I have the list for 2000, the last year the other Jaguars were listed. This had the following...
Jag 27, inboard engine 3 blade prop, fin keel - 1098
Jag 21, fin (or drop, they are the same) - 1116 (now, alas, 1108, just to make it harder for me!)
Jag 25, inboard folding prop, twin keel - 1165
Jag 22, lift keel 1168.
These must have been the configurations being reported to the RYA up to that year.
At Hoo Ness the 1108 for the Jag 21 seems about right - it is a faster but tippier boat than the 22.

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 12:04:37 AM by Ian Buck
So can I go with 1168?

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 02:01:47 PM by Geoff (Hilary's little bro.)
The 1068 that I mentioned for the J21 came from the 2003 list of numbers - sounds to me like J21's generally have been bettering the 2000 handicap!
I think you'll find that, in practical terms, the differences aren't huge; on a 3 hour race with all other things equal (which they never are!) - about 2 minutes between 1068 and 1108. And of course this can easily be affected (either way!) on a race by race basis by the nut on the tiller!
Have fun and enjoy your sailing...

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 05:52:08 PM by paul
Hey, what are you trying to do to me!! It's difficult enough getting a win on 1108!!
I think you will find that the Jaguar 21 is indeed 1108 in the RYA 2003 list, where the other number came from I don't know.
Ian, I am sure Will will give you a number based on 1168 (for those who don't know Hoo Ness Yacht Club, Will is our Racing and handicap supremo), it will be good to see you out on the race course when you've got your bottom repainted!

Posted on 9/5/2003 at 05:08:41 PM by Ian Buck
Have you been looking at my bottom?

Posted on 30/4/2003 at 12:48:07 AM by Geoff (Hilary's little bro.)
My apologies; you're right it is 1108 not 1068 - I've ordered some new eyes - my glasses are fine!
Still; beware the misjudged windshift or tide - that could blow your result anyway!

Posted on 28/4/2003 at 11:18:28 AM by Geoff (Hilary's little bro.)
There is a full list of RYA Portsmouth Numbers on the RYA site; the following link will take you to the cruiser section :
http://www.rya.org.uk/forms.asp?contentId=2224965
There is a recorded number of 1068 for the Drop Keel J21 which probably won't be too far away from what a J22 would be.
The J22, the J25 and J27 are listed under the heading of 'More Returns Required'. . .
I guess not enough people race Jags (yet?)
Mmmmm - do I feel a race to Bembridge coming on!!

 
135. J27 WHIM/ROOM/SPACE IN TILLER/RUDDER
Posted on 29/4/2003 at 07:45:23 AM by Gerrit Andela
Hi owners of a jaguar 27
This winter my rudder seems to hold some water, and the frost made a little burst/crack in the rudder.
After drying I used sikaflex to close it. This spring I notice some room/space between the tiller and the rudder while cruising. Does someone recognize this sign, must I worry or is a little room normal??
I don't hope it's a rhetoric question Any advise? Bye, Gerrit

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 09:25:33 AM by Dick Hicks
Gerrit, It is common for the rudder to hold water, mine does and so do others. There was a posting on this very subject rectly, look through them and als o the archived ones.
The problem is that it is difficult to prevent water entering the rudder after a few years. The other problem is that there are steel tangs welded to the shaft to hold the rudder in position and these can rust - although I do not know of any rudders falling off!(yet...)
If the shaft is moving within the rudder, you have a potental serious problem, the tangs can rust away or the welds can fail, and the rudder drops off!. Check, with the tiller firmly lashed, whether you can move the rudder relative to the shaft. Obviously, do this when you are ashore or against scrubbing posts. There is normally clearance between the rudder shaft and the nylon bearings in the rudder tube, and as long as it is not excessive is nothing to worry about.
Where are you based? and keep us informed of progress.

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 07:11:20 PM by Gerrit Andela
Dear Dick, Thank you for the fast response, I think it's a good idea to check ashore. I'm based near Amsterdam in the Netherlands. I Will keep you informed of progress

Posted on 29/4/2003 at 07:08:33 PM by Gerrit Andela
Thank you for the fast response, I think it's a good idea to check ashore. I'm based near Amsterdam in the Netherlands. I Will keep you informed of progress.   

136. J25 PETROL INBOARD
Posted on 29/4/2003 at 10:44:28 PM by Bob B
Just made an offer on a 1979 J25 (£6k). In good condition but has a 7.5Hp Volvo Penta Inboard PETROL. Some people have suggested that inboard petrols are dangerous. Im interested in Jaguar owners feelings/experiences

Posted on 1/5/2003 at 01:24:54 PM by Dick Hicks
Bob, as Jeremy says don't be put off entirely by the petrol engine. Make sure the installation is up to the latest spec for the fuel lines, filter bowls, etc etc, your surveyor should advise on this and then you should have np problem with insurance. Petrols are smother and quieter than diesel and it will cost over £3000+ to fit a new diesel.
I had an Albin 6HP in a Halcyon 23 some years back and after I'd done all the recommendations it was fine for 3 years till I sold it. Negotiate a better price if it needs work on it. Good Luck.

Posted on 30/4/2003 at 12:21:15 AM by Jeremy Knight
There is no doubt that the fire risk is much greater with a petrol engine. Petrol has a flash point much lower than diesel and will certainly explode in all but artic weather. You can shove a lighted match or fag in diesel and it will not combust. But it has to be said that gas on a boat is even more of a risk, and many people don't worry about that. At the end of the day it comes down to the quality and maintenance of the installation I guess. If you love the boat I wouldn't let it put you off.
It can be argued that Petrol is not as appropriate in a marine environment because of the greater dependency on electrics to run (no spark plug in a diesel). Set against that they are smoother I believe. I don't think there is a duty concession on petrol, so the cost would be much higher (All the more incentive to rely on sailing!).
It's a serious cost to install a diesel, and while it may be desirable, the cost may preclude....
I would look to the current owners making some sort of gesture (i.e. a good price) towards this boat having a less desirable engine. I would also make sure that your surveyor knows his onions when it comes to petrol installations. A few extra pounds spent on checking it's all OK would pay dividends in piece of mind.

Posted on 1/5/2003 at 11:12:22 PM by bernadette
we had that very engine on our vivacity 24 for 8 or 9 years. petrol was never a problem, i think volvo penta was.(actually made by honda) our boat was under powered; i think she was much heavier than the longer jag. (i'm continually assured that diesels prefer to work unlike petrol engines).
however, the volvo penta had a design fault, it started manually and there was a flimsy bit of metal that snapped off. it was soon replaced in a more robust manner. i have just asked my old man of the sea the technical name and he informs me it was the thing attached to the starting whatsit.
once the spark plugs needed replacing but as ex bikers we always carried a spare set and typically never needed them again.
i don't think the flash point is as low as spirit stoves and plenty of boats have those. at least you can smell petrol leaking.  Our old (1970) vivacity's petrol engine is still going strong unlike our jag 27's volvo penta 13hp diesel which expensively broke 2 years ago. Anyway 6k seems a bit of a bargain, where are you based , i bet it's not the solent!

Posted on 3/5/2003 at 03:36:21 PM by Bob B
We will be based in Newhaven - going to have final look at boat tomorrow before making the big plunge. Thanks to all for the assistance given - im sure i will be calling on it again very soon !!

Posted on 1/5/2003 at 10:21:11 PM by Laurie
Everything Jeremy says, absolutely!

Posted on 3/5/2003 at 07:36:09 PM by Paul Mead
My J25 had the same engine when I bought her a number of years ago. I have since installed a new Yanmar diesel but this was after I had it rebuilt with a new Honda head.
In the end the gasket went and that was when I decided to replace it. The problem, I was later told, was that their construction was not really robust enough for sea use. Apparently the exhaust boxes were known for rusting away, but could be replaced.
I decided to replace mine as I didn't and don't have sufficient expertise with engines to mess around with it. However it was incredibly light and easy to remove for servicing. I still have it in my shed with lots of bits that were replaced on the service the year prior to me purchasing the Yanmar. If you do go ahead and want to use it for spares give me a shout.
Regards

137. J25 MARKS I & II
Posted on 2/5/2003 at 05:30:54 PM by Anne C
Hi. Could anybody please tell me the distinguishing differences between a mark I and mark II. We want to buy a Jaguar 25 which has the table as dinette style, port to starboard. I thought this was a mark II but just visited a brokerage site which had a mark II (supposedly) and the table was fore to aft. What's the difference? And does anybody know of a nice Jag 25 for sale, bilge or lift keel, with outboard and within 2-3 days' sailing distance of Essex? Thanks

Posted on 3/5/2003 at 06:47:18 PM by Laurie
I thinks that there's one at W. Mersea?
For differences twixt 1 & 11, click onto J25 page. The primary difference is the rig, the Mk11 having a slightly larger rig with slightly swept spreaders.
It would be fair to say that the transverse dinette is an earlier arrangement, but very wrong to differentiate the Mk1 & 11 on the basis of that alone.

Posted on 2/5/2003 at 09:19:40 PM by Colin Bishop
I've got a Jag 25 Mk2, Sea Swan, with the dinette arrangement. Mk2s have swept back spreaders and lower and cap shrouds brought inboard and a babystay. The cabin roof had full length grabrails from new. They also have an inch or two more headroom in the saloon. Original cost as quoted in Yachting & Boating December 1982 was £10,000 inc VAT! No, mine isn't for sale I'm afraid.

Posted on 10/5/2003 at 01:06:17 PM by Ralph Wilson
Mine was sold as a J25 Mk2 although supposedly dating from 1979(no documentation). We don't have the different rig but we do have the Mk2 Fin Keel according to the data we have (deeper than the Mk 1). Malstrom has the table on the port side providing the fill in for the dinette port side. Although we do have a piece of plywood cut to size so that we can have a full width full size double athwartships from the stbd seat across to the port side.

138. J25 CRACKS IN HULL
Posted on 4/5/2003 at 04:55:09 PM by Bob B
Im looking to buy a J25 and have noticed some fine cracks in the hull gel coat on both port and starboard side just below the berth level on the front berths (about 3/4ft back from the bow). The survey suggests that this is due to weakening in bulkheads in that area. I am getting a quote to have it sorted but just want to know if this is a common Jaguar problem - it certainly looks like a design issue.

Posted on 5/5/2003 at 03:25:16 PM by Laurie Milton
This is not too uncommon, & it is generally not thought to be a problem. If you trawl through the archive section, you will find extensive discussion on this subject; let me know if you have any problems.....(email direct)

Posted on 4/5/2003 at 09:44:08 PM by Colin Bishop
Nothing like that on mine, it's a Mk2 1984.

139. SEAMASTER
Posted on 7/5/2003 at 11:03:28 AM by Jeremy Knight
I had a check of my batteries last night. All was well until I dropped one of the nuts that holds down the top of the battery container. Off it rolled into the most inaccessable part of the bilge - typical. But while I was fishing round I came across the builders plate, which had obviously also dropped off and slithered into the bilge.
To my surprise Barcarole was built by a company called seamater. I have been told they went bust just after my boat was built. So mine sat on the hard for 2 years until the liquidators managed to sell her on. Anyone heard of seamaster?

Posted on 7/5/2003 at 02:15:38 PM by Grahame Lloyd
SeaMaster moulded a number of different hulls eg Halcyons. Russell Marine, alias Jaguar Yachts (Southend) did the fitting out. You can blame them for the poor interior design! I believe most J27's were Seamaster - mine is too.

Posted on 7/5/2003 at 01:30:14 PM by Geoff
Jeremy, Try this link; it may take you where you want to go... http://www.seamasterclub.co.uk/

Posted on 8/5/2003 at 11:33:41 PM by bernadette
hi jeremy, we too have a little plaque on our boat saying seamaster, great dunmow. laurie has previously given us all this info but must also try geoff's link which sounds interesting. i'd forgotten they were related to the halcyon and also the vivacity and the mirage. all essex girls but not nearly such good lines as the jags!

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 07:37:43 PM by Anonymous
-Jeremy is not reading his website.....!!!

Posted on 9/5/2003 at 09:22:33 AM by Dick Hicks
Bernadette, I had a Halcyon 23 and a Vivacity 20 before my J27 and was very fond of both of them, they took me to as many places as my J27 surely and safely. And the Halcyon 27 has several ocean voyages under her belt(based on the Folkboat design), but nice to hear that they were all moulded by Seamaster who I believe had a good reputation. My J27 is more comfortable though and has more room than the H27, but as you say all good Essex girls!

Posted on 10/5/2003 at 10:31:37 PM by bernadette
dick, i was not casting aspersions on the other boats BUT our jag is much prettier than our old vivcity 24. also jeremy, i think essex is a beautiful county! i lived there for 10 years and didn't have to wear white stilletoes once.

Posted on 9/5/2003 at 09:57:57 AM by Jeremy Knight
No way is Barcarole and essex girl. She doesn't wear white shoes, she drinks deisel not Diamond White, her chain is not gold with Cubic Zirconas and nor was it bought in Argos, and she isn't a push over for boy boats. NO WAY IS SHE AN ESSEX GIRL!!!

Posted on 9/5/2003 at 09:23:16 PM by Dick Hicks
BUT - she was born in Essex surely!?

Posted on 9/5/2003 at 08:22:02 PM by Anonymous
DAM!!!!!

140. SL 400 SEA TOILET
Posted on 10/5/2003 at 11:13:36 AM by Per Inge Sekkenes
Please advice me how to repear inlet valve,I have change spares,but still no sea water in,only out ok.My a good drawing on net also can help.

Posted on 11/5/2003 at 04:52:55 PM by Laurie
-if you send me your email, I'll take dig.photos of the manual & email it to you.. however, to do the inlet valve....
1/ close seacock
2/remove basin back tube from upper nozzle of inlet nozzle (part 14)
3/remove 6 stainless screws & nuts,withdraw inlet nozzle & remove old inlet valve
4/push handle to left, into flushing position & wedge a screwdriver between gland nut (part 21) & the handle (part 23) & hold the spindle in the out position. This will draw the valve operating lever (part 15) below the level of the valve face.
5/ insert 2 centre screws in the inlet nozzle, & with the spring projecting over the square hole in the inlet nozzle, thread the loops of spring over the 2 screws. Place inlet valve (part 13) over the same screws, with the foam rubber on the lower flap against the round hole of the inlet nozzle.
6/ Reposition the inlet nozzle n the inlet chamber, tighten 2 centre screws & replace 4 screws & nuts. Do NOT overtighten these.
7/ Remove screwdriver to allow spindle to return. Check for free axial (spinning) movement of spindle & oil as needed.
8/ Replace the basin back tube to the upper nozzle, open seacock......

Posted on 10/5/2003 at 06:17:13 PM by Laurie
Simpson Lawrence, the manufacturers used to produce a little kit with a good instruction booklet. It''s a while since I did mine, so I can't remember the details, but if you give me a few day/week til I go to the boat, I'll see if the booklet is in my onboard folder!

Posted on 11/5/2003 at 11:22:18 PM by Kenneth Rennie
Spares for the SL400 are still available through your local chandler. They can order them from Lewmar who now take care of all Simpson Lawrence Engineering parts. There is also a very good troubleshooting guide for the SL toilets which I have a copy of. If you contact the email address above I can send it out.

Posted on 13/5/2003 at 12:41:45 AM by PerISekkenes
Hi Kenneth. Iknow of possibilitys of buying new spare parts, but by looking at the whole pump unit, it doesn't look like anything is broken. It's more like a malfunction. Anyway, by some mistake your email address was lost!! Please send your address to mailto:[email protected]

141. RUDDER PROBLEM - WHATEVERNEXT !!!
Posted on 11/5/2003 at 00:38:52 AM by Dave Clark
Just putting the last touches to Salve Nauta before she goes in the water and noticed a sort of rust mark on the rudder about quarter way up from the bottom. On closer inspection it looked as though this was comming out through the rudder wall itself but when I poked around with sharp thing ...nothing, so drilled a hole 2 inches from the bottom and out streamed a load of water, AAAAAH !! now what ?. Advise "PLEASE"

Posted on 11/5/2003 at 04:59:01 PM by Laurie
This is not uncommon, & has been discussed on site before (archive section). It is a POTENTIAL problem, all the more so if you have the spade rudder, as the tangs for the blade are internal; so you won't know the degree of corrosion, until the blade fails. On transom hung blades the tangs are external.
The only sure answer is to split the blade..........

Posted on 11/5/2003 at 11:14:43 PM by dave clark
Cheers for that Laurie, Had a look at it today in the cool light of a rainy day, caught all the water in a can out of the rudder and it looks clear and has now stopped running. Will bung the holes up and live with it for this season, on lift out will split the rudder to make sure all is well or repair and then put it all back together and then drill a hole in the top and bottom and fill the whole lot with close celled foam from a builders merchant, that should settle it for good. (Or not)
I used to go out at one time you know, pictures, pub.....where did my life go ??.

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 08:16:54 AM by Dick Hicks
Dave, if you do split the rudder in the autumn, please post what you found on the message board as there are lots of us who have a similar potential problem, and it will either put our minds at rest or scare us to death!

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 07:41:21 PM by Laurie
Dave, whatever you do, DO NOT fill with foam with the blade UNsplit as it were:, closed cell foam, seldom is & you may find that you could make things worse. Otherwise your course of action seems entirely sensible......?

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 11:43:05 PM by Dave Clark
Yea, that's a good point Laurie thanks for that. I'll do a bit of an article with pickies and all that Dick when I set to it on liftout....and theres more; I've just found a secret box with no entry under the starboard seat. Open the starboard locker, find the right hand side and site it on the cockpit seat top. Open the rear locker and find the left hand bulkhead (round the corner) and mark it on the seat top, "presto" a secret locker, I've been trying to screw down a wayward wooden seat slat and can't get at the bottom of the middle screw/nut,bolt. I'll have to cut a hole in the locker side and fit a watertight round hatch. (whatevernext)

Posted on 20/5/2003 at 11:09:13 PM by Dave Clark
Ah My Dear Friends, How nice of you all to (NOT) call me a horrid name and point out that there are no secret lockers on a Jag 27 and that it was probably the very top of the starboard quarter berth that I couldn't recognise because I was standing on me' ead and was disorientated at the time. When I started drilling into the side of the starboard locker to find out what was in this secret locker a voice from down under shouted "Oi I'm being snowed on down ere" Guess what it was really the very top of the starboard quarter berth etc etc ...... The damage can be repaired!! funny old game this sailin init.

Posted on 21/5/2003 at 10:16:32 AM by Geoff
As a relative of the person who shouted "Oi I'm being snowed on down ere" - I feel privileged to say "PILLOCK!!"

142. J25 COST OF BUYING
Posted on 11/5/2003 at 09:13:01 PM by ian reid
What sort of price should you be expecting to pay for a Jag 25. Any details of ones for sale or links to them would be interesting.

Posted on 11/5/2003 at 09:26:26 PM by Colin Bishop
I'd say top whack would be around £10,500 for a post 1982 Mk2 with diesel inboard and good equipment list. At the other end for a boat in reasonable condition perhaps £8,500.Watch out for Osmosis though. When I was buying Sea Swan 7 years ago the asking price was £10,000 but the surveyor reported osmosis. After a bit of wrangling I bought the boat for £8,500 and had her treated and epoxied for £2,500. I was happy with that. She is a bilge keeler with outboard but the interior was very good. Most equipment had been removed except for the log, wind and depth electronics and a VHF. It cost me about £5,000 to supply all the bits and bobs needed to satisfy safety requirements and bring her up to scratch, including renewing the standing rigging. Whatever you do, get a survey! You will easily recoup the cost when negotiating a price.

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 08:05:52 PM by Anne C
We've just bought a Jag 25 today! Not sure if it's a MKI or MKII but she's got a lift keel and outboard but also osmosis. We originally offered £8500 for her but after the survey (Phew, thank goodness we had one!) found high moisture content readings inside and out and blistering, not to mention a stress fracture by the keel and something technical (Yes, I'm an Essex girl but we won't re-awaken that argument!) wrong with the tiller amounting to over £4000 worth of repairs we eventually agreed on a price of £6000. Estimate for Osmosis was £3228 so beware. That said, we're thrilled to be Jaguar Owners and can't wait to join your association. Where do we sign?!!!!

143. HEAVE-TO ISSUES
Posted on 12/5/2003 at 02:28:27 PM by Peter Ferguson
I was out sailing out J22 on Sunday of the Norfolk coast with my wife. The forecast was for a 3-4 with 5 later. My first mistake was to not reef down in harbour in preparation, although I had considered it. Once out of the harbour we soon discovered the wind had indeed struck a force 5 (confirmed later). After getting out of the channel I told my wife not to worry because we have this brilliant heave-to mechanism that we can go into and then I can reef the mainsail and everything will be happy. So as prescribed we went-about (without modifying the jib sheet) and then pushed the tiller in the same direction as the mainsail. Everything went quiet and steady. I tied the tiller to one side and then went up on the cabin roof to lower the main halyard. I wasn't up there long before my wife started getting worried. It seems that the boat had started to head further into wind and started to sail. This had the effect of the boat leaning over and over. Apparently the lee board went in the water.. (Although I didn't see it). Upon hearing the concern I jumped back into the cabin and let off the sheets and brought her back onto an even-keel.
We tried heaving-to a couple more times each with the same effect. On one occasion I definitely think the waves were getting under the hull and pushing us out of heave-to.
So here is the question. I have a furling genoa and main that needs reefing. What did I do wrong to get into this predicament? Was the genoa not furled out enough compared to the main?
Was me moving my weight for'ard the cause. Is heaving-to the right manoeuvre in J22 for reefing?
I think that the genoa was too furled in to counteract the full main? The boat started to sail with main alone and the genoa was not pushing us back out of the wind.
I would really appreciate the association's wise words. We had practised the heave-to manoeuvre the week before and I had reassured my wife that this was a safe position in any wind condition and that many sailors had survived really bad conditions by deploying it.
On a brighter note. Once the main was reefed we completely regained control of the boat and managed a exhilarating 12 mile sail. I look forward to seeing replies.

Posted on 12/5/2003 at 07:53:00 PM by Laurie
Any boat will heave to; it's just that no 2 boats will heave to the same way, nor 2 of the same with differing crew!
What are we trying to achieve...? -to confuse the boat basically, to make opposite ends of the boat go in opposing directions, then confound them both by backing the sails & helm.
The wind should be trying to line thes stern up, yet the bows are trying to fall off the wind, with the helm bringing it up...!!
The trick is to bring all this into balance & the 22 being headsail driven, will appreciate the headsail being reduced. The genoa has a far greater SA than the mainsail.....
The other trick is to practice, for the balance will change with conditions; but the 22 shold lay almost beam on, perhaps fore reaching gently, yet sliding downwind.........
You're right, it's a very useful manoeuvre to do, as long as there is room

Posted on 14/5/2003 at 12:32:49 AM by Jeremy Knight
Everything Laurie says I agree with. It is difficult to say, with out being there that made you start gathering way. It could have been the waves, but they would have had to have been very regular. I suspect it was something else. As Laurie says, you are looking to balance the jib (pushing you off the wind), the main (pushing you into the wind) and the rudder (which can do either depending on where you set it). When you let off the main haliyard, this balance would have been upset. Probably the boat then turned, started sailing itself - and you had a few problems.
Heaving to is a great thing. When the brown hits the fan and everyone is panicing, it can calm the situation down and buy you time to think. If you want to eat your sandwiches, its a great way to have a quiet few minutes. In severe weather it can even be a useful survival technique. Do keep on experiementing to find out how your boat heaves to - its an important and often neglected technique.

But for reefing with a crew I would not normally tend to heave to. I tend to use the following sequence:
1) Keep on sailing, preferably somewhere near close hauled.
2) Let the kicker off completely and ease the mainsheet. This will take the power out of the main which will flatten out the boat and help things all round. It doesn't matter to much if the main flaps around a bit.
3) Put on plenty of topping lift. The more you can raise the boom, the easier winding in the reefing pennants will be.
4) Drop down the halliyard, attach the reef point to the boom, pull up the haliyard.
5) Grind in the reefing pennant, then let off the toppig lift.
6) Put the kicker on, sheet in and carry on sailing.
This of course assumes you have slab reefing.

Posted on 14/5/2003 at 01:49:34 PM by Steve Edwards
Hi everyone not actually a heave to issue but sort of associated. I'm picking up on Laurie's comment about a Jag22 being headsail driven. I'm mostly okay in winds up to 14 ish MPH above this I shorten sail. Bank holiday weekend there were speeds of 23/24mph gusting to 36mph but occasionally dropping to 7/8 mph. I discovered with 3 reefs in the main and no Genoa you don't tack at all you can only wear ship and gybe. Not good for going anywhere. With some Genoa it was difficult to balance short enough sail in the gusts with being able to tack when the wind dropped. When we got back in I met up with John who has sailed a bilge keel 22 for 18 years. He hangs onto the existing sheet until the Genoa is back winded and the boat's head is through the wind and on the new tack only then does he release the old sheet and harden up on the new one. I intend to try this technique next weekend. I have never seen it suggested in any of the sail handling books, has anyone else tried this?
Incidentally you get a lot of practice tacking if you sail on Rutland water

Posted on 20/5/2003 at 03:09:52 PM by Hilary
Only just catching up with this discussion. To induce a faster clean tack by delaying release of the jib until it is backwinded on the new tack, that is a standard racing dinghy technique. Mispent youth. Good timing and practice is the key. Don't think roll-tacking a J27 will be quite so effective.

Posted on 17/5/2003 at 03:44:57 PM by Laurie
Most, if not all masthead rigged boats, especially those whose rig derives from IOR thinking, hello J22s, J25s' J27s, will have the predominance of "power" supplied by the genoa. Hence, "headsail driven......."

Posted on 14/5/2003 at 03:16:19 PM by Jeremy Knight
Backing the jib is an old light wind racing technique. Use it on my 27, and it works well, but make sure you can release the old sheet smartly. If you are a little slow or if it gets caught up then you start late on the winding in on the other side(as well as slowing down the boat). The grind in then becomes heavy going , unless you give it a little luff up to help the crew. Personally I never luff up because my crew are fat and lazy and therefore could do with loosing the weight.

Posted on 14/5/2003 at 08:54:48 PM by Phil
Steve Sailing on Rutland Water you must have noticed a lot of the dinghy sailors backing the jib in most of the races as it brings th ebow round through the tack faster....

Posted on 15/5/2003 at 10:14:59 AM by Steve Edwards
Phil I spend most of my time trying to dodge them a cat was clocked by a rescue rib at 26mph last week. The only route from the moorings to the Whitwell end is through the race area. I got my timings wrong the other weekend and was suddenly decended upon by lord knows how many Asymmetrics all going like bats out of hell didn't know which one to try to miss. Scary too busy dodging to look for techniques

Posted on 16/5/2003 at 09:17:24 PM by Phil
I'll give you a call when I'm free tend to do either the safety boat on Saturdays and race the formula One's on Sunday's. The club has beenvery busy with events this last few weeks, suggets you get hold of a calender of events from Linda in the office to find when things aren't so hectic. I agree it has spioilt a lot of club members sailing but there are few pleces when/where large events can take place inshore...........

Posted on 17/5/2003 at 04:10:54 PM by Steve Edwards
Phil Thanks for your interest, I wasn't moaning about the racing just concerned about being in the wrong place at the wrong time and perhaps wrecking someones chances at something they had been working towards all season. Looking forward to seeing you.

144. J27 - ITS CURTAINS FOR J27
Posted on 13/5/2003 at 06:39:35 PM by Hilary
I have been searching for suppliers of the aluminium curtain track, and extra sliders and stops to match the existing and, I think, original in Salve Nauta. At the point of giving up, I find at last a supplier just 10 miles away from me. In case anyone else is interested the track, sliders, stops are still made by Silent Gliss, style 1025. They have a website, ring them for your nearest dealer. I found the trail on a VW caravanette site.

Posted on 14/5/2003 at 11:19:48 AM by Dick Hicks
I also researched this about 2 years ago, also found the Gliss ones in a caravan shop but decided too expensive, so as I only wanted them for the bottom of the curtains, I fitted the old fashioned curtain 'spring' type, the white plastic covered ones, an eye at each end, a fixing in the centre to keep the centre into the cabin side, and just tuck the bottom of the curtain into it. Much simpler and it never jams up. My original had the track top and bottom which was useless - if any one interested I still have the tracks I removed in my shed.

145. J27 MAINSAIL SIZE
Posted on 18/5/2003 at 10:08:34 AM by Dirk
I am being offered a new mainsail and have to decide until tonight. Can anybody let me know the exact size of a normal J27 mainsail? Unfortunately, I can`t get to the boat in time to measure myself.

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 08:09:23 AM by Dick Hicks
Dirk, my J27 has a fully battened main, Luff = 28'-4"; Foot = 9'-2" & Leech = 29'-9".
These are of course only specific to my boat, yours may be slightly different. If I was getting a new main I could add 6" to the luff and 9" to the foot, without too much problem.
The best way is to measure your own mast & boom, sailmakers usually have a form you can fill in together with a method of measuring

146. J27 PROPSHAFTS/PROPS/RUDDER WEEP
Posted on 18/5/2003 at 06:40:33 PM by james stringfellow
Hi fellas - anyone know what size prop a J27 needs - just got mine hauled and discovere a prop(er)-botch job where the propm is obviously too large for the boat. Can you reccomend a supplier ?
Also the rudder is letting water in through the top and streaks of rust are leaking out of the side - any ideas ? thanks for any replies & see you at the rally.

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 01:14:09 PM by Dick Hicks
15 x 9 prop for sale on Ebay.co uk - no 2415161121 - auction ends in 7 hours time.

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 08:02:10 AM by Dick
James, my J27 has a 17HP Perkins diesel, 2:1 reduction gearbox & a 15" x 8" two bladed prop. It was originally 15x9 but was overpropped so I had it re-pitched to 15x8. Much better, now revs to 3200 under load(3600 no load). Speak to a prop supplier, lots advertise in the back of the sailing mags, who will work out the corect size prop for your engine/gearbox.
With reference to the rust stains from the rudder, lots of discussion on this in earlier messages, look in the 'archive' section and try the 'search' facilty - basically keep an eye on it, it's the tangs which are welded to the rudder stock that are rusting, but don't know of any rudders that have actually fallen off yet.....

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 11:06:39 AM by Jeremy Knight
I think we need to hold a "rudder workshop" at the rally. Looks like nearly all the 27's are suffering rudder weep

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 12:22:28 AM by Geoff
Jeremy, I think this a very good suggestion. Has anyone out there got a "spare" blade that we can pull apart and have a look at?
PS. All other things being equal I will be with Hil and Dave on Salve Nauta at the rally

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 01:15:46 PM by Jeremy Knight
Glad that you'll be there. Could you bring the rudder from your boat seeing as you won't be using it that weekend?!!!

147. J21 WOT, NO RUDDER!
Posted on 18/5/2003 at 11:02:04 PM by Paul
I thought I should share this with you, another cautionary tale from my Jaguar 21 ownership…
The club race today was in a SW F5-6, so we were well snugged down with two reefs and the jib. The first leg was a reach down the Medway, not too bad, we had 7.3 knots on the log; then we turned into a beat with a strong wind against a strong flood tide….. It was a bit bouncy, as you might expect.
Half way down the beat the tiller extension is suddenly plucked from my hand by an unknown force. As we go into an unexpected crash tack we see the rudder, stock, tiller and tiller extension all vanishing into the distance!
It is not easy steering a Jaguar 21 in a strong wind with only the movement of the outboard in the well. I was composing the letter to my insurance company, my crew hailed other club safety boats... no, not to get off but to ask them to look out for our rudder. However we made it back to the mooring with only a few circles, zigzags and other involuntary meanderings.
Just a chance, we thought, we were windward of Hoo Island at the time, lets go over and search the shoreline. It took a good half hour to row out to the island in the tender (no 2hp outboards for us) and more time to walk round the island but our efforts were rewarded. The tide was ebbing by now and there was our rudder, stock, tiller and all, on the high tide line and totally undamaged!
So what caused it to come off? It appears that the admittedly quite violent wind against tide situation had made the little retaining clip bend, allowing the whole lot to be bounced off the pintles and find freedom in the Medway. As I only remove the stock once a year I am going to replace that little clip (which looks the same as that put on a Laser!) with something solid and substantial.
This is the second failure on Jasamats of something in the rudder/tiller department (although much the most dramatic) so I suppose the moral of the story is, to check those rudder fittings!

Posted on 19/5/2003 at 06:33:22 PM by Ian Buck
There is no retaining clip on my rudder at all, I am planning to drill the pins and fit split pins, the rudder in a big timber jobby, obviously fixed(no need for a kick up rudder with a fin keel).

148. "SHAKIN" PROPSHAFT
Posted on 20/5/2003 at 01:22:56 PM by Jeremy Knight
I have a little problem with my prop/shaft at the moment. When I start the engine all is OK, but as soon as I put it in gear there's an almighty noise from the stern and you can see the prop shaft shaking around like mad. When it first happened I had a little think, then I thunk some more, then I healed the boat over, had a fish with the boat hook to clear anything on the prop, started it up again and all was well. Bingo I thought.
Then last night I turned the engine on, and it started "shakin" again. I thought again, decided on masterly inactivity, had another think then started the engine again, and all was well. Mmmm I thought.
Then same again this morning. "Shakin" to start off with, then better a minute later. Hurumph I thought.
It seems like when you first start the engine, something is unbalancing the prop, but after a little while it sorts itself out, only to return later.
I have come up with all sorts of theories. My favourite is exceptionally sticky weed stuck to the prop, that rapidly shrinks when you spin it in water, but then slowly re-inflates when the prop stops turning.
Anyone got any more sensible suggestions as to the cause of my ills?

Posted on 21/5/2003 at 08:15:58 AM by Dick Hicks
Have you lookeg at your engine mountings? - is one broken/loose/rubber parted company/rubber swollen with diesel/rubber too soft?

Posted on 20/5/2003 at 09:14:27 PM by Gerrit Andela
I think that the water is actually 14,5 degrees celsius, it has to be high enough to take a look underwater, you can stop thinking and have a new problem.
How to get warm, Now serious, I don't have a idea what the problem is.

Posted on 20/5/2003 at 09:19:23 PM by jeremy
You probably havn't come across the river Itchen where my boat is moored Gerrit. The temperature is not the problem. There are things floaing in there that only HG Wells could describe using the written word - yuch!

149. J22 TWO MORE BEGINNER QUESTIONS
Posted on 22/5/2003 at 10:15:15 AM by Denis
As I mentioned in previous posts, I bought my J22 second hand at the end of last summer, and the learning continues.
When I rigged her I had lots of odds n' ends to spare which I put to one side 'till last Tuesday night. I now have two tackles, a 3:1 & a 4:1, both look home made (nicley done with neat splicing), a small 0.5 inch screw-shut U-shackle on one end and a spring clip on the other and both draw from approx 22 inches extended down to 10 inches compressed. They have v-gammers built into the pulley frames. I already have the kicking strap (and a retired kicking strap).
Suggested uses for these two tackles would be appreciated. I'd hate to think that there are folks on the water thinking "look at that muppet - he hasn't even tightened his XXXX". Not that having loose xxxx's would necessarly bother me, but I'd like to know about it!!!
Secondly, the term 'round-the-boom reefing' and the make up of my boom came together in my head for the first time so I tried reefing the sail. The mechanics worked but the sail shape looked dire and I felt I was fighting the gear rather than working with it. I wouldn't like to be doing it under pressure. Can a decent sail shape be acheived and should I be working from the mast or the outboard end of the boom? Any other hints?
As always looking forward to your erudite responses.

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 01:53:31 PM by Grahame Lloyd
So called roller reefing. In the 70's and 80's many IYE booms were made with the ability to roll the main around the boom. The system never worked satisfactorily as it was impossible to roll the main around the boom evenly as the luff is pulled towards the mast - so distorting the sail and preventing it from setting properly. Additionally one also had to give up the kicking strap. Stick to slab reefing!
However, there are modern boom roller systems which are better engineered and work properly.

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 10:29:42 PM by Laurie
What Grahame says is right, although the se can be improved by a/ the sail cut, a padded leech: a similar idea to padding the luff on roller reef genoas, or the old trick of bagging the luff as it was furled. You don't need to abandon the kicking strap, as a claw ring attachment (common, even as we write!)facilitates this.....    (as he says, if you need new sails, get slab reefing!)

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 10:53:54 AM by Jeremy Knight
I am afraid I know nothing about round the boom reefing, so will leave others comment on that.
The two tackles you have sound like "handy billies". They are massively useful. Keep them, but don't worry too much that they should be somewhere pulling in the xxxx. Some of the uses would include:
You can use one attached to the boom to help lift an inflatable dinghy onto the boat.
If you fly a cruising chute then attach the tack with one - this gives you a way of adjusting the luff tension. If you get a riding turn attach one end to the sheet with a rolling hitch and the other to the top of the winch. Pull in and you release enough tension on the sheet to remove the riding turn.
You can use it as an emergency vang. You may be able to use it as a method (perhaps att to the boom) of lifting somebody back on board if the happen to fall over.
You can lift any heavy object with it. For example it can be used to lift vats of wine onto the boat.
You can whip the crew with the bitter end. There you go - an immensely useful item.

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 10:57:32 AM by Geoff
Don't know much about the J22 but might one be a back-stay adjuster?

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 10:56:23 PM by steve edwards
How about attach to your topping lift. You can now set or release from the cockpit. If your reefing is lead back as well you can do it all from the cockpit. Regretably not my idea it was in PBO a few months ago.

Posted on 23/5/2003 at 10:13:02 AM by Denis
OK! food for though here. I think I'll fold up the two tackles for a while - my back stay doesn't appear to have an attachment for adjustment, I replaced the topping lift for it to feed to the cockpit already and the crew would mutiny if I tried whipping them - perhaps next year when they're more into the swing of things! In the mean time I've ordered a vat of wine to be delivered to the marina - that's the practical type of info that makes this notice board invaluable. Non of my sailing books or mags list a vat of wine as necessary pieces of equipment or supplies or a having a handy-billy to get it abord.
I've a suspicion that the main at least is the original or at least close. The budget will not cover a new one just now, but I think slab reefing will be on the list once it comes up for replacement. I'll play some more with it to see if I can get it any better than the last night. Thanks to all for your suggestions,

150. J27 RUDDERS
Posted on 22/5/2003 at 12:31:44 AM by Hilary
I was glancing at the forum/message board on Sabre 27 website: http://www.sabre27.org.uk/
The topic of RUDDERS strangely caught my eye. There is an interesting string of messages, sample as follows:
"Q:Is there any test you can do to identify what metal the tangs in the rudder are made of without opening it up?
A:If you look in your Handbook under R - Rudders you will find such a method under 'Initial Examination'. I used it myself successfully, mild steel tangs deflected my handbearing compass a lot. Check both sides, tangs are close to only one of the sides. If you have any questions give me a ring. Rudders fail!!! Check it.
Am considering a questionnaire on rudders and other things, any suggestions are welcome."
I thought that other Jag owners may like to have a look.

Posted on 22/5/2003 at 03:39:18 PM by Dick Hicks
Have to have a look, sounds interesting. If we all find all our rudders are 'dodgy' perhaps we should have a mass workshop one weekend in the winter and fix all our rudders!

Posted on 23/5/2003 at 09:24:33 AM by Jeremy Knight
I jokingly suggested the same for the southcoast rally. Geoff then pointed out that it was in fact a good idea. We talked about getting an old rudder from somewhere and breaking it open. But where to get a rudder. However your idea of doing it in the winter sounds good. We could combine it with some sort of social event, and perhaps hold it in the centre of the country so that those from the east coast could also make it.

Posted on 23/5/2003 at 03:49:57 PM by Grahame Lloyd
The subject of leaky rudders seems to be quite a pre-occupation with Jaguar owners - I'm glad I am one of (the few?)owners with transom hung rudders! There ia an excellent article in this month's YM describing rudderless sailing - an art I have yet to master.

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 00:07:57 AM by Laurie
Mine too, is transom mounted, but with a substantial full depth skeg....luvverly!

151. J27 HULL EPOXYING
Posted on 23/5/2003 at 03:39:32 PM by Grahame Lloyd
Because of the flaking antifoul, I have had my bottom (the boats!) slurry blasted. My options are primer and antifoul or epoxying and antifoul. Have any resourceful owners epoxied their hulls. If so what is the natural hull moisture level and what is an acceptable stable moisture level in a 20 year old hull. Any comments appreciated . . .

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 00:05:22 AM by Laurie
Have you had a reading taken & if so what machine & what reading?
Having recently gelshielded (an epoxy) my 27, this will have an effect on your subsequent options. Feel free to email me direct if you wish.......

Posted on 28/5/2003 at 10:24:05 PM by Laurie
-v quickly though, 3% would be very good.....

152. J21 OUTBOARD
Posted on 24/5/2003 at 03:57:08 PM by Graeme F
Just bought a J21 with no outboard. Thought a Honda 5 4-stroke would be good, bought a new one and disaster! it wont fit in the well any ideas as to wot will. Also the tiller rubs on the cowl of even a v small engine, is this normal?

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 09:57:54 PM by Paul
Welcome to J21 ownership. I have a Mariner 5 hp 2 stroke on my Jaguar 21 which fits well - although you do have to put the prop end through the the well sideways (with the clamps to one side), clamp it on and only then straighten it to fore-and-aft and tighten the wing nut. The original tiller did rub a bit even though it was shaped to be pointing up - I now have a laminated tiller curved to go around the cowl. The four stoke may be OK though - Somewhere (Tollesbury?) used to sell a moulding for this purpose. You could cut out a bit of the well and replace with this glassfibre moulding so that the four stroke engines can be used. Laurie is bound to know!

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 09:57:17 PM by Bruce Cowie
We bought our J21 with a Mariner which just fitted in the well, but also had scratch marks on the cowl. To reduce drag we fitted a lifting transom mount and have also replaced the engine with a Honda 4 stroke. The old engine's bottom end corroded due to it being in the mud when the previous owners mooring dried out.
I also have a 2 stroke Force which we have used - this fits in the well but has direct drive(no neutral or reverse)and is not much use for mooring up or getting into the harbour.
We have not had any problems since putting the outboard on the transom bracket, having the weight up there has not made any difference to the handling of the boat. Only advice if you do want to go this way, be careful about positioning the bracket for rudder clearance and getting the prop low enough to keep it submerged during choppy seas.

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 11:44:36 PM by Laurie
The current builders, Paul Randall of Jaguar Yachts (no. on site)uses a mariner 4 stroke on the demo 215, although I believe 215s have a slightly modded tiller? Give Paul Randall a call

Posted on 29/5/2003 at 09:53:24 PM by Pete Taylor
I have just replaced an over the top Mariner 8 with a new Mariner 5 long shaft. I have the same problem with the vent on the filler cap catching the tiller. However a small wedge under the lifting tiller solves the problem. I did try to run it on a transom bracket but it didn't seem to be high enough out of the water.

153. J22 KEEL
Posted on 24/5/2003 at 10:35:41 PM by Bob F
Hello fellow Jaguar owners. I have just discovered this site while trying to get info on the keel fixings on a Jag 22 and am hoping that someone can give me some suggestions. My keel wire was threaded through a steel bracket which was then bolted onto the keel. However, the steel bracket corroded away leaving the keel stuck down. After much faffing about I have the boat back on the trailer and am looking at reattaching the keel perhaps using a suitable shackle through the eye at the end of the wire. I would be grateful to hear of how others attach their keel wire.

Posted on 24/5/2003 at 11:46:37 PM by Laurie
Moused shackle is the norm. Inspect every season on lift out

Posted on 25/5/2003 at 07:45:42 PM by Bob F
Much obliged for the reply, but forgive my ignorance - what on earth is a 'moused shackle'?

Posted on 27/5/2003 at 06:46:44 PM by Anonymous
-=mousing a shackle is locking the screw pin to the shackle with wire. The wire used for rigging bottle screws is ideal. Use a stainless steel shackle.
The same process is used to secure the shackle which connects your anchor to its chain?
-I'm not sure if this is clear........

Posted on 27/5/2003 at 06:47:36 PM by Laurie
sorry, the above was from me......

154. J25 GOOSENECK FITTING
Posted on 25/5/2003 at 08:32:52 PM by Steve
Have recentley aquired J25 and have a small query.Where boom meets gooseneck does the plastic fitting just snap together and mainsail downhaul and weight of boom hold male and female parts together or am I missing some sort of retaining clip.
(Thanks Paul for help on other request I wil be ringing you soon)

Posted on 25/5/2003 at 09:25:12 PM by Bill
Hi Steve,  I think you are missing the 2 metal 'C' shaped retaining clips.

Posted on 29/5/2003 at 05:06:54 PM by Ralph Wilson
If you've lost them, then Sailspar www.sailspar.co.uk can replace them. I let half of the plastic ball go for a swim and they were v. efficient at replacing then. That's if it's an isomat mast - I'm not sure about other J25s. The trick in getting the boom on/off the gooseneck is to tighten the topping lift until the boom's about 30 degrees from the horizontal and then the plastic ball will slip into the universal joint jaws. Release the topping lift until boom is nearly horizontal and then put the 2 metal c clips on. Can be a 2 person job unless you are careful not to let bits fall in the water !!!
Hope this helps.

Posted on 30/5/2003 at 03:01:33 PM by Steve Alexander
I think I may be missing something here.
On my J25 I have only ever fitted the boom by raising it as described and slotting it into the mast then lowering it to the horizontal. I don't have any clips - the previous owner never told me about any. After five years I haven't had any problems or have I just been lucky?

Posted on 30/5/2003 at 03:15:20 PM by Ralph Wilson
Steve, Mine is an Isomat mast. According to Laurie, these were not usually fitted to J25s ! Yours might be totally different again.

155. J22 RUDDER/TILLER
Posted on 27/5/2003 at 09:23:14 AM by Steve O'Connell
Help/advice wanted please. What sort of retaining device is used to stop the rudder accidentally coming off from the gudgeons - pintles are on the rudder?

Posted on 27/5/2003 at 01:39:42 PM by Peter Ferguson
I guess one method would be to insert some sort of pin through the pintles. On our boat 'SnowBird' we have a 4 inch piece of wood bolted to the stern just above the top gudgeon. The bolt goes through a hole in the wood which is about 1/3 the way along its length. To remove the rudder we swing this piece of wood to one side to the horizontal. To stop the rudder from lifting up we swing the wood back to the vertical position so that it rest just on top of the gudgeons. Seemed a bit Heath Robinson at first but now I am used to it, it seems simple and stong.

Posted on 27/5/2003 at 11:34:00 PM by Paul
Hi Peter Having read your post I will make up something similar for my J21 (see posting below, Wot no rudder, for my tale of woe). It seems a straightforward idea!
In my case the pintles are on the transom. I will replace the spring clip which failed with a piece of hardwood bolted to the transom just to clear the gudgeon when it is in position on the bottom pintle (but to stop it moving upwards!). I only want to remove the rudder stock once a year, I am much more concerned that the stock does not fall off again when I don't want it to!
Has anyone else got alternative solutions?

156. THE HEAT IS OFF
Posted on 27/5/2003 at 01:55:43 PM by Stuart Wartalski
Had a fantastic first sail of the season to Bembridge over the weekend in Solace ( J27 ). Saturday night was a bit chilly so to to keep the crew happy I put the eberspacher heating on. Two minutes later everyone is toastie. Sunday evening even colder so pulled out the starter button and absolutely nothing !!!! Crew well miffed ( wife and daughter actually ). Is there something simple here by way of explanation as to why it would work one day then and not the next. Any advice would be welcome.

Posted on 28/5/2003 at 09:02:27 AM by Jeremy Knight
A number of things spring to mind. There is normally a re-set switch on top, next to the wires that go into the main unit. Sometimes this needs pressing if the unit overheated. Also worth giving all the wires a wiggle. Mine just wouldn't work the other weekend, gave the wires a wiggle and hey presto. Trick devils those loose connections! The other thing to think about is the power requirement when starting. Although they only use about 1A when running, to start they use much more (to heat glow plugs and technical stuff like that). If you found that the fan started, then stopped a few seconds later, there probably wasn't enough juice in the batteries to warm up the unit. The of course there are fuses - there is at least one - on the distribution board for the unit. Final really silly idea - sorry if this is so obvious that it causes offence - Was the fuel supply turned on and any switches on?

157. TIAMO?/F-BATTENED/STICKYNESS
Posted on 27/5/2003 at 11:57:35 AM by Hilary
We at last sailed Salve Nauta into Southsea Marina. Hallo Team Doggett, hope you had a good sail to Yarmouth. There is another Jag 27 up on the hard called Tiamo. Is she a member?
We put the new mainsail up, eventually. It is very "sticky" in the track, even after lots of "lube". Any ideas anyone?  Hope you all had a good sailing weekend!

Posted on 28/5/2003 at 01:40:04 PM by Simon Doggett
Good to meet Salve Nauta and her crew after their trials and tribulations! Team Doggett had a good thrash down to Yarmouth and an even better run/beam reach home from Alum Bay on Monday. Average 5.5 knots through the water is good enough for me!
Before fellow posters jump in with suggestions for your sticky mainsail, you should let on that it's fully battened. I think this makes a substantial difference to the replies! My understanding is that fully battened mains exert more pressure on the luff. That's why they have fancy batten cars rather than plastic sliders. Hope you enjoy Southsea. If so, keep it quiet or they'll put the prices up!

Posted on 2/6/2003 at 01:56:00 PM by Dick Hicks
I also have a fully battened mainsail with the usual short white plastic rectangular sliders, and it was hard to pull up and had to be dragged down. My local sailmaker fited new longer black sliders on the batten ends and new white plastic sliders on the intermediate slides, but with a 'loose' tape connection. It works a treat now, the mainsail is easily hauled up by hand and drops immediately as long as you are head to wind. Certainly much cheaper than batten cars - £100 if I remember. My mainsail is also cut fairly flat and i don't tighten the battens up too much.

Posted on 9/6/2003 at 02:08:48 PM by Hilary
Thanks Dick and Simon. A chum has suggested we do what the racers do now ..... squirt washing up liquid into the track. Hmmmm.
Any ideas about "Tiamo", otherwise I will leave some info, if the owners are not discovered.

158. J25 RIGGING
Posted on 28/5/2003 at 03:13:18 PM by Russ Hardman
Have recently purchased J25 mk2 circa 1985. Previous owner did not sail her for the 5 years he owned her. Being from a dinghy backgroud, I usually set the rig tension, mask rake etc for all my boats, is there any info on setting rig for a J25 so as not to incur damage when the breeze gets up, and also to maximise performance. PS most impressed with association, my membership will be forthcoming.

Posted on 28/5/2003 at 07:17:59 PM by Laurie
1/ set mast plumb; can be checked with a halyard of the chain plates either side. Fore & aft is more guesstimate, assuming that the foot is level, a weighted halyard should hang thereby.
2/ going round sequentially, tighten all shrouds by hand: hand tight.
3/ same again, with tools (key/screwdriver, or whatever bottle screw system you have)Same amount on each, until approx. 6 turns per b. screw.
4/ align shroud screws fore/aft.
5/ sight up the mast. It should be plumb.
Now add a mast thickness of fore/aft rake, by adjusting lower shrouds. No more than a mast thickness (diameter) though, this is not a fractional rig....
5/ with fore lowers add a mast thickness, no more, of prebend, at the spreaders.
6/ Done, go fo a brisk F4? sail on both tacks, & adjust out any EXCESSIVE slack from leeward shrouds. In a good breeze, the tension should just go out of them.
If you fnd that there is too much slack in the fore stay, tighten backstay; you don't want the genoa luff falling away in a windward beat.......
Check everything & wire up bottle screws so you don't catch yourself on the wires. Personally, I can't reccommend taping the b. screws.
Bob's your Auntie Matilda's niece.  Or should be...........

Posted on 28/5/2003 at 07:19:22 PM by Laurie
ps., being a Mk2, you may have a single babystay, instead of fore lowers....?

Posted on 30/5/2003 at 05:10:37 PM by Laurie
-also see owners manual, for members?

Posted on 30/5/2003 at 04:43:21 PM by Steve Alexander
You might also like to check out the following website for a very detailed explanation.
http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/snkmast.html

159. J22 ADVICE ON BUYING
Posted on 1/6/2003 at 02:54:22 PM by gordon harris
A friend is thinking of buying a J22, anything I should tell him, and what should he pay?

Posted on 1/6/2003 at 09:31:51 PM by Laurie
What does he want to use it for, & what is included? Cracking boats, but I'm biased as an ex owner........  (£2-4K as a very rough guide)

160. J22 RIGGING
Posted on 2/6/2003 at 09:05:35 AM by Steve O'Connell
I've just had the standing rigging replaced - I took the old shrouds off and gave them to the rigger. Now I have the mast back up my stbd lowers are slack - port lowers are tight but the rigging screws are nearly wound right in. Can anyone offer any advice please as the only solution I can think of is to change the rigging screws with smaller - in length - ones.

Posted on 3/6/2003 at 11:30:52 AM by Jeremy Knight
I have to say, I would expect the riggers to do the initial set up on the mast when buying new standing rigging. After all they cut the wire to the required length (presumably using the old shrouds or from measurements they took), so it should fit without you having to fit new screws. This would only leave you to tune the mast when sailing. It sound a bit like you have not had the service you deserve.
If you do end up going for smaller screws, they will be less strong - which may or may not be an issue. The riggers should be able to tell you if this is a problem as they should know the loading requirements of your rig. It may be better for them to shorten the wires. This would depend on how much they need taking off. If it is only a little then shortening would be difficult as cutting off the old terminals would use up quite a bit of the length of the wire.

Posted on 3/6/2003 at 10:38:45 PM by paul
I agree, if you've got the mast straight then it sounds like they measured the length wrong and you should get them remade.
I've been told that new rigging is made up a quarter inch or so shorter than the old to allow for the stretch that occurs over time, so your problem should if anything be the other way round!

Posted on 4/6/2003 at 10:12:49 AM by Steve O'Connell
Thanks - I went and had another attempt last night and have now taken the front lowers off to have them made 3inches shorter.

161. KEEL TURNING BALL
Posted on 3/6/2003 at 08:39:30 AM by Steve O'Connell
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement keel wire turning ball - I had one sent over from the US but have put it in such a safe place I cannot find it and am going back in this week?

Posted on 7/6/2003 at 07:50:01 PM by dave clark
Now!, you wouldn't be avin this 'ol Cornish boy on would ee Steve me 'ol mate?. My 'ol sergeant asked me to go to the guard room and ask for a long stand once, took me ages an all. "keel wire turning ball" eh eh I ask ee.

Posted on 9/6/2003 at 09:31:06 AM by Steve O'Connell
Orright boyy, actually its very genuine - there is a brass ball with a groove cut in it so the keel wire is centered in the tube. It's held in place by a horizontal pin and the vertical rubber hose.

162. SMELLY FEET
Posted on 5/6/2003 at 08:53:08 AM by Jeremy Knight

I am lucky to be in a job where I don't have to dress up in a suit each day. This means that I slop around in an old pair of sailing shoes all day, every day - 24/7 as our colonial colleagues would say. The problem with this is that they do tend to become a little niffy, particularly a couple of weeks after they have had a good soaking after sailing. Then I got this tip, and its great. Put your shoes into the freezer over night and hey presto the malodorous elements are gone - at least for a while. Just one warning Don't tell your beloved that you are abusing the freezer in this way. Mine was concerned that the smell would contaminate the sausages. Adds extra flavour I say.
Anyway, thought you may appreciate the tip and seeing the effect my feet used to have on cats.

Posted on 5/6/2003 at 11:22:45 AM by Grahame
I think the cat is just attention seeking. Children do the same thing - but to your wallet.

Posted on 5/6/2003 at 09:54:44 AM by Geoff
I hope your shoes will get 'the treatment' immediately before Bembridge!! Atmospheric pollution might take the shine off the weekend!

Posted on 5/6/2003 at 08:13:08 PM by Laurie
I spose this wouldn't be a good time to mention a Ferret......& feet...too good a combination!!!!!!

163. J22 BROKEN MAST - WHAT TO DO?
Posted on 7/6/2003 at 06:09:35 PM by Jeff Harris
The mast on my 1980's Jaguar 22 is broken immediately above the stays. This is a ragged tear rather than a clean break. Is it possible to repair the mast, if so who would take on this type of work? Does anyone know a source of second hand masts, or where to obtain a new one (approx. how much?)
Any advice greatfully received.

Posted on 8/6/2003 at 03:09:30 PM by Laurie
Catalina Direct, Sailspar, & several others listed in the suppliers directory, that (should?) be sent FOC to all members.........

Posted on 9/6/2003 at 09:34:52 AM by Dick Hicks
Z-Spars in Hadleigh are a good bet, competively priced and easy to talk to.
Don't know their tel no offhand but they do have a web site. Do a search on Google.

164. PERKINS FUEL WATER SEPERATOR
Posted on 17/6/2003 at 06:16:59 AM by Paul Mead
I have a Perkins fuel water seperator and have noticed that the rubber seal on nylon drain plug is leaking and needs to be replaced.
I live in Essex and sail from the River Orwell in Suffolk. Does anyone know of anywhere where I can get a replacement.
 

Posted on 17/6/2003 at 01:08:45 PM by Dick Hicks
Paul, try ASAP Supplies in Beccles - Tel 0845 1300870 - they also do I believe a metal drain plug which doesn't bind up like the nylon one.

Posted on 17/6/2003 at 09:34:11 PM by Laurie
-also French Marine at Levington/Brightlingsea, details in the suppliers directory, FOC to members

165. J23 STANCHIONS
Posted on 18/6/2003 at 12:03:06 AM by Simon Handley
one of my stanchion bases has been replaced in the past by an illfitting stainless steel one. the original ones are alloy and appear to have screw hole spacing of 60mm on the outboard and 55mm to the inboard one.They have a makers mark of ff. I have phoned around some chandlers but with no success, does anyone know where I might obtain a replacement?

Posted on 18/6/2003 at 10:31:03 PM by Laurie
Contact Paul Randall at Jaguar Yachts, details on website, & in members suppliers directory

Posted on 18/6/2003 at 01:17:01 PM by paul
Your alloy bases sound the same as the ones on my Jaguar 21, when one of these broke i could not find a new one with matching hole spacing. My local chandler who generally knows about these things says that about 6 years ago the spacing was changed and sold me an otherwise identical bit of kit but with wider hole spacing - about 67mm between centres.

I had to fill up the old holes throgh the deck with epoxy and drill new holes but it was not a difficult job and externally you cannot see the difference

Can't remember the make, if needed i will go and ask him!

166. J27 RUDDERS.....AGAIN
Posted on 18/6/2003 at 09:40:15 PM by bernadette
we too have a transome hung rudder so none of this leaky stuff, etc. however. we met a young couple at wootton creek with a j25 with transome hung rudder. this they removed every time they left their boat and stowed it below! it would appear that friends of theirs had one nicked. (this was possibly someone who had been sent over the edge of sanity with a leaky rudder problem)

Posted on 18/6/2003 at 10:28:39 PM by Laurie
....thats what I used to do with my 22s rudder, but Sunbirds is supported with a full depth skeg, so rehanging when afloat would not be the biggest giggle...well, it might to onlookers!

Posted on 19/6/2003 at 10:42:53 AM by Steve Alexander
Whenever Calypso (J25) is on her mooring I always take the rudder off. It only takes a minute and prevents any damage as she settles in the mud at low water. The possibility of theft of the rudder had never occured to me but it would make it difficult for someone to steal the whole boat if it couldn't be steered!

Posted on 19/6/2003 at 09:18:44 PM by Colin Bishop
I usually take the tiller, but not the rudder, off my J25 when moored for any length of time but this is intended to protect the varnish more than anything. A J25 rudder is solid wood and weighs quite a bit so I don't know why anyone would think it worth stealing

Posted on 21/6/2003 at 04:31:34 PM by Ralph Wilson
OK, call me stupid. . .
presumably to remove the J25 rudder you remove the nuts from the pintles and lift off ? I've never done it!
I would also probably take the tiller off to preserve the varnishing, however,there is so much backlash in the tiller/rudder headstock connection that I have used 2 penny washers and some insulating tape to make it tighter.

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 02:38:00 PM by Steve Alexander
I'm not sure what a 'standard' rudder arrangement is but on mine I have a stainless steel pin with a flange at the top that just drops through the rudder pintles and relies on gravity to stay in position. I can't conceive me putting Calypso in a situation where a knock down could allow the pin to fall out.
Last winter I made some modifications by drilling out the holes on the pintles to the same size as nylon bushes that I fixed to the pin. This has dramatically reduced the very irritating rattle that used to come from any movement of the rudder - especially when motoring with the prop wash flowing straight past the rudder.

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 05:49:01 PM by Grahame Lloyd
Assuming your transom hung rudder is the same as mine, there is a hole for a split pin at the bottom of the rudder pin. Additionally, there is a pivoted bracket which lifts the rudder up when taking to the ground. This bracket is pivoted on the top of the transom. When the rudder is up the rudder pin will come out of the bottom pintle unless there is a split pin. All 3 rudder pintles should have bushes.

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 05:53:14 PM by Grahame Lloyd
I assumed we were talking about J27 rudders. My previous posting is not relevant to J25!

Posted on 25/6/2003 at 09:51:06 AM by Steve Alexander
I suppose we should have started another string.
My rudder pin is not the original and is long enough to be able to raise it partially as you describe and still have plenty left below the bottom bracket. Trouble is in soft mud, even when partially raised, the rudder still touches the bottom so all in all I would just rather take it off completely except for short durations moored.

Posted on 25/6/2003 at 06:11:47 PM by paul
I can never understand why non-sailing friends and family think our nautical terms sound funny... anyway, I have always understood that the gudgeon is the hole thing (that you put the nylon bush in) and the pintle is the pin thing that acts as the hinge or pivot. Following my rudder falling off recently I am thinking of drilling the top of one pintle to take a split pin so that the gudgeon cannot slip off.
I do not know of any fault with the notice board to cause anonyomus postings, maybe it is as Dick suggests below. Normally it's been very reliable IMHO..

167. J25 - PROBLEM WITH MY NUTS!
Posted on 19/6/2003 at 09:56:52 PM by Robin
Our jag25 is undergoing some repairs prior to launch, (yes i know it's late but we have only just bought her) and they seem to be having a spot of bother getting the plates off by the pivot pin. The problem it seems is getting a tool onto the hexagonal nuts. Has anyone come across this in their time, and what did you have to do to remedy it?

168. RUBBING STRAKE
Posted on 23/6/2003 at 08:50:18 PM by bernadette
got the boat neat and shipshape in time for 5th july rally and had truely excellent survey for our insurance. on friday had a call to say the boat on the mooring next to us had hit us and done some damage. alas, we have some deep gouges out of the fibreglass (a difficult shade of ivory to match?) a bent stanchion base and possibly the most difficult, a damaged rubbing strake.
has anyone replaced one and does anyone know if such a thing exists?
if we had done it we would probably have to live with it but it made us a bit sick after all the hard winter slog and expense.
the irony is, our club has recently banned pwc. we've never been hit by a jet ski but have been knocked on our mooring a few times by the local dingy sailing school(and gone to their aid!)
oh well, worse things happen at sea.

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 08:42:01 PM by Colin Bishop
Sorry to hear about the mishap, I suppose you just have to be philosophical. Everything is repairable in the end. I suffered damage to my rubbing strake as a result of a collision with a Solent fort (which precipitated our encounter with HMS Illustrious). The boatyard couldn't match the original so the original had to be reinstalled. They made a pretty good job of it actually. I have since seen displays at the Boat Shows which offer a variety of profiles and aluminium channel retainers. If you have to replace the lot it shouldn't be a problem and you could go for an improved option although I suspect that Jeremy's suggestion of teak could be a bit pricy. But, as Steve says, it's probably best if the insurers pick up the bill. Best to get professional advice on your options.

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 08:20:12 AM by Jeremy Knight
Damned annoying, but it does happen. The rubbing strake is a standard piece of material across many different yacht, so it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement. The good news is that I don't think it is part of the strength of the hull deck join, so although it would be worth hose testing the join to make sure it is still OK, I am sure all will be well.
Have you considered replacing it with a piece of teak? A bit of expense, but much more visually pleasing. And if the same were to happen again, you can scarf in a replacement piece rather than having to do the whole lot

Posted on 24/6/2003 at 02:36:08 PM by Steve Alexander
Had a similar incident a couple of years ago resulting in the whole rubbing strake being replaced as the original couldn't be matched. Deep gouges also repaired by Yacht Solutions at Port Solent - insurance job so, apart from major hike in premiums, relatively inexpensive for me personally.
Can show you results at Bembridge. See you there.

Posted on 26/6/2003 at 02:33:06 PM by bernadette
thanks for all the advice. will have a good look at steve's boat at bembridge.
i think our neighbours will go for the insurance option as the guy who does our glassing at our club has mentioned some figures that would be worth them going that route. david won't have any more external teak as life is busy maintaining a very old house! if we were doing it ourselves we would have to live with it (the rubbing strake) it's only a boat....

169. J22 KEEL HANGERS
Posted on 24/6/2003 at 04:43:51 PM by Ian Morris
Can anyone tell me where I could buy a pair of Keel Hangers for a Jag 22. I lost mine when the keel fell off, managed to recover Keel but no sign of hangers

Posted on 25/6/2003 at 06:18:39 PM by Ian Morris
Me again, maybe there aren't any left. Has anyone got any info on size/shape etc so I could get some made up.  Here's hoping.....

Posted on 28/6/2003 at 11:22:09 AM by Steve Edwards
This is a bit negative, don't buy from Catalina fordeck in the USA without checking shape. Everything else I have bought fitted fine, but the hangers were a different shape. From memory I think they could have been machined to fit. My 22 is 1981 I don't know if the hangers changed with different years.

170. J27 BUYING ADVICE
Posted on 25/6/2003 at 02:56:12 PM by Andy Giles
I am seeking advice and help please, based on your experience. I am in the process of buying my first boat, after many months of research I have narrowed it down to the Jaguar 27 v Trapper 500. I believe the Jaguar would be a better bet for my needs. It looks like some of my family will join in my new hobby, so at most there will be 5 ( 2 adults and 3 teenagers)of us aboard. At other times I plan to sail alone. How is the 27 for single handed work? Is it expensive to kit her out for this kind of work. For a novice sailer is this going to be a boat that not only gets me started, but will see me through my first few years? Is the 27 up to Channel crossing type trips, or only coastal work? Based on experience, what are the key things I should look out for when viewing a 27 prior to survey. So many questions, some help from owners would really help my decision. I plan to start looking at boats in the next few weeks, there appear to be at least a couple worth a look. I did my skippers ticket back in january, and having done some chartering feel like I want to now do my own thing. I plan to do most of my sailing from the south coast, Chichester area looks most likely area. I have read evruthing I can find on the 27 from old articles etc, but nothing beats user experience. Thanks in advance from this novice for any help.

Posted on 25/6/2003 at 04:06:55 PM by Jeremy Knight
So many questions! Where to start? It sounds like your search for a boat is similar to mine in that I came down to the same 2 choices as yourself - the trapper (501 in my case) and the Jaguar 27. There are many similarities between the two boats. You may be interested in looking at the yachting mags this month - one of them (either Yachting monthly, sailing today or practical boat owner, PBO I think) had a trapper review. Both boats suffer from a limited galley, but I have to say that I have never found this to be an issue myself, and I spend at least 2 nights a week living on the boat. I think the things that swung it to the Jaguar for me were:
a) the forward accommodation is more separated from the heads (not an inconsiderable thing if you have more than 2 people on board - anyone sleeping up forward would not want to watch me having a widdle in the middle of the night).
b) The large companion way hatch on the Jaguar. When in port you really can get a good open space to the top of the cabin, which in good weather really adds a sense of space to the boat.
c) The Jaguars seemed to represent pretty good value for money compared to the trappers.
The accommodation is homely (mainly because of the good use of wood) and comfortable. The quarter berth is a delight to sleep in, although getting in and out can be a squeeze. Some owners have removed the back of the dinette aft seat to make the quarter berth easier to negotiate. The dinette, as a bed, is great for one, but very cosy for two. The port berth is fine. The forward berths are a little short on headroom I find, but I am 6'4''. There is good headroom above the galley, which is wear you need it. The heads can be a squeeze to move around in, but are very much usable.
Having lived with the boat now for a year, I have to say I am very satisfied overall. The only real problem I have had is in doing a little re-wiring. The builders laid the wiring in the balsa core of the coach roof. But this is a problem in many boats, and although annoying, is easily overcome.
Looking at how she is to sail. In one word " great". You would find a Jaguar easy to sail but still exciting - ideal as a first boat in fact. Often you will find her faster than boats considerably larger than 27'. The prop walk is not too bad which makes parking manageable. In reverse there is not a huge amount of steerage against the prop walk, but so long as you are expecting not to have to turn sharply this is not really a problem, and many boats suffer similarly. She is stiff and seaworthy. One has even sailed round the world, so crossing the channel is just a walk in the park (says he tempting fate). I regularly sail mine single-handed. I carry an Autohelm (£150 new or less from a boat jumble) and a length of rope that I use as a mid-ships spring to stop the boat as I enter the berth. No modification is needed in my humble opinion to sail her single-handed.
The cockpit is deep and secure, which adds to the feeling of safety - this probably will be a consideration if you want to take your family out. The foredeck is a good working platform, but you need to be careful (as you would on any 27'er) on the side decks. My dog finds the companionway steps a bit steep, but manages to jump down.
As to common faults to look for, a good place to start would be to review all the messages on the notice board here - there are all sorts of technical issues being discussed. Some specifics I would look out for, not all of which are specific to jaguars:
1) Osmosis - the yacht you would be buying will be about 20 years old. This is an ideal age for osmosis. This is not the death knell of a yacht, and indeed many great osmotic-bargains can be picked up. But if you see blisters below the water line, make sure you negotiate a good wedge (£2-3k) off the price or walk away. The good news is that I have not heard of any major osmosis problems in Jaguars so probably the quality of the lay-up was quite good. You hear of other makes (eg Etap) which are all suffering after 6 or 7 years.
2) Rudder. 27's come with either a skeg or transom hung rudder. In both cases check that there is no movement of the tangs. Tie off the tiller firmly then try to wiggle the rudder blade back and forth. If you get movement then work will be needed. Ask your surveyor to have a good look.
3) Sound the rudder blade with a screwdriver handle or similar, looking for empty voids - may indicate the first stages of the breakdown of the rudder filling, which will lead to 2) above.
4) Above the water, give the engine a thorough checking for oil leaks, cracked heads, rusty exhaust manifold and so on. If possible run it up. Probably it is 20 year old as well.
5) Then there is the obvious like sail condition, check the mast is straight, condition of decks, is the cutlass bearing OK and how tatty is the interior.
The only one of these that seems to be a common jaguar 27 problem is the movement in the rudder.
So in summary I find my boat to be a good office and flat when I stay on her during the week, a great boat to sail and value for money. A few niggles are there, but not very serious.

Posted on 26/6/2003 at 01:39:21 PM by Dick Hicks
Andy, I endorse what Jeremy has said. I regularly sail mine singlehanded and don't have a problem as long as you have it set up well. I do use an Autohelm which is very useful when reefing etc. If you buy it make sure you check the "U" bolts which the lower shrouds are fixed to - I accidently wrung off one of the nuts when trying to cure a deck leak and on examination it suffered badly from "crevice corrosion", where stainless is not exposed to air. All four were affected and I replaced them with new(can't remember the supplier but a direct replacement but larger). I also looked at lots of boats and settled on the J27. You might be a bit sqeezed with 2 adults and 3 teenagers, but any boat of this size would be - but it does have a nice large cockpit for entertaining. I have sailed mine across the North Sea several times, to France, Belgium and Holland, never had a moments worry about it's seaworthyness. And it's faster than a Contessa 28! Make sure the Gas installation is up to the latest standards and the fuel system for the engine. The best bit of advice is to get a survey. Make an offer " Subject to Survey" and if there are any problems either walk away or negotiate a good discount. If there is subtantial Osmosis, this will cost up to about £4000 so you could really negotiate a good discount.
Good Luck and if you purchase you'll find lots of advice on this site - Oh, and join the association!

Posted on 26/6/2003 at 02:01:14 PM by bernadette
we too looked at a jag 27 and a trapper 501 which is now at our club and for sale at about 19000k. the jag was less when we bought her as she is a bit smaller and a couple of years older. we prefered her lines and larger cockpit.
the only other thing to look for on a jag is to make sure of is some sort of metal strap or fixing from the deck to the hull at the very front pointy bit. sometimes this is not there and we met someone who had a scarey experience when the two came appart while sailing along!
we love our boat and think it excellent value for money. we wouldn't change for any other 27 , old or new.
however if you want to look at our friend's 501 in portsmouth, let me know.

Posted on 2/7/2003 at 10:49:35 PM by Laurie
-see archive re stemhead fittings for CYB yachts. Ensure all thru bolted on stainless backing plates.....have made contact now with he that built (in person) the 22 & 27s...... more to come.

Posted on 3/7/2003 at 12:04:52 AM by jeremy
You've made contact with the bloke who built the 27! Can you ask him why he was too lazy to lay the cabling above the headlineing rather than putting it in with the deckhead core!
Seriously, would he be prepared to do a talk at a rally say next year, or maybe over the winter at a central UK location - entitled "Jaguars and their building - Foibles and Quirks" (or something like that. I'm sure that there is a lot we could learn, and we would enjoy his perspective. I don't suppose we could pay anything but expenses. Though we could stand him dinner and a drink or two between the attendies.

Posted on 3/7/2003 at 08:57:14 AM by Dick Hicks
Laurie, what are these problems you talk about with the J27 stem heads? - Can you tell us more?

Posted on 5/7/2003 at 11:50:56 PM by Laurie
In a nutshell, it was common practice to attach stemhead fittings (Jaguar were not alone in this.....) by screwing into, but not through, the deck. This is inherently weaker than through bolting onto backing plates, either plywood or stainless.....I have the feeling though that this is not what you were asking?

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 08:38:59 AM by Dick Hicks
Laurie, not sure what the problems had been - my stemhead is through bolted with backing plates(I think...) so hopefully will be OK. I'll double check when next on board.

171. J25 GUARD RAILS
Posted on 26/6/2003 at 09:22:56 AM by Robert Macdonald
Recently I removed my guard rails in order to seal up some leaks.After replacing the stantion bases,to my horror I discovered that the gaurd rails complete with uprights had been discarded.I would be greatly obliged if anyone could point me in the direction as to how to replace them.Either second hand or new.

Posted on 26/6/2003 at 09:22:41 PM by Colin Bishop
I have been having problems with the PVC covered guardwires rubbing against the inside of the stanchion holes. Last winter I had the lower holes in the stanchions sleeved to solve the problem at a cost of about £70.

Posted on 26/6/2003 at 02:06:09 PM by Laurie
Oh, such are the benefits of membership!
You should have been sent ( by email..?) a suppliers directory (members recommended)which lists a couple of companies, who should be able to help. If not, email me direct....

172. SL400 (HEADS I WIN)
Posted on 27/6/2003 at 04:53:59 PM by Dave Clark
Has anybody got an SL400 or another SL and been told "oo ah no more spares for that one 'fraid" Just as I have been and was just about to chuck away and start re-adjusting the heads area when ...EUREEEKA !! YACHT PARTS at Plymouth have all the parts you need right off the shelf and send them overnight. 01752 252489 or www.yachtparts.co.uk should take a weight off the 'ol mind or whatever.

Posted on 28/6/2003 at 08:50:02 PM by Ralph Wilson
I seem to recall the chandlers at Cobbs Quay ringing their suppliers to be told that it's the same as the RM69 loo.

Posted on 30/6/2003 at 09:09:54 AM by Dick Hicks
That doesn't sound right, the SL400 has an integral large pump at the rear worked by a large horizontal handle sticking out to the front & one side. The RM69 has the more usual up & down pump at the side. Tried to look at the rm69.com web site but did not seem to give any information.

Posted on 30/6/2003 at 11:32:35 AM by ralph wilson
Not having the stuff here, it's hard to disagree. Mine is as you describe the rm69. Although perhaps my memory was incorrect and it was badged as a SL414 or something. I'll look next time.

Posted on 2/7/2003 at 10:46:28 PM by Laurie
Sl400 parts service parts available through manufacturer (Simpson Lawrence, now agents) through your local chandler. If any probs see chandlers in members rec supplier directory or give me a shout........

173. J27 MORE RUDDER INFO
Posted on 28/6/2003 at 06:27:36 PM by Hilary
Before we bought Salve Nauta, we looked at the Tomahawk 25. They have similar rudderblade concerns as do some of we JAguar owners. A Tomahawk owner in Weymouth tells me that he had his rudder repaired, that he "used a local Portland firm, Clarks, they split the rudder in half, down the long axis, to reveal the rudder stock and broken tangs, these were then re-welded and the rudder reassembled, the two half's being glassed back together and re-epoxied then repainted. The job cost £100, and took about two weeks, however it only took this long as I said I was in no hurry, and the boatyard was very busy when I dropped the rudder off, the job itself is probably only a couple of days work."   I thought others may be interested.

Posted on 1/7/2003 at 11:19:53 AM by Jeremy Knight
Interesting - not as expensive as I thought.

Posted on 4/7/2003 at 12:42:16 AM by Hilary
..... and a readers Top Tip in Sailing Today ( Oct 2001 Edition 54 p.121 for pic!) after a Sabre 27 lost rudder blade and thus steering due to corroded tangs... they rigged an emergency steering system by drilling a 10mm 'ole just below the tip of the trailing edge of the rudder and passing a rope through the 'ole, leaving a knot in each side of the blade. The rope ends were then led to the winches to each side of the cockpit, enabling them to steer back to mooring. That writer has now pre-drilled his blade as a precaution!

Posted on 4/7/2003 at 12:45:20 AM by Jeremy Knight
Slight problemette. If you drill a hole in the rudder, doesn't it let the water in leading to rusty tangs. Just a thought, but it did seem to me to be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Posted on 4/7/2003 at 03:01:45 PM by Dave Clark
Would'nt recon so, bow-thrusters don't let the water in, fit it like that....
Just a thought.

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 08:34:42 AM by Dick Hicks
To put a hole in the upper trailing edge is often advocated as an emergency steering option on blue water cruising. I was going to fit an eye bolt in mine, it's sitting in my toolbox, but never actually got round to fitting it. Perhaps an ordinary hole would be simpler - but you would still have to fit the rope with a knot either side, which may be difficult in anything of a sea. My idea would have been to use snap shackles on a piece of rope which would get snapped on - but still difficult to fit in practice. How about a line rigged permanently?

174. J25 TOWING A J25
Posted on 29/6/2003 at 10:22:55 PM by J Johnson
Is the quoted displacement of 1950kg for a jag 25 the same as its physical weight. I'm considering the purchase of a bilge keel model and would welcome any advice on towing it with a Landrover 110.

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 09:51:55 PM by Colin Bishop
My J25 (Mk 2 1984)also has its mast mounted in a tabernacle which would allow it to be lowered. It would protrude about 3 feet from the transon plus the VHF aerial if fitted. I feeling is that it would be a pretty big boat to tow, much larger than the average trailer sailer. Don't forget the weight of all the gear inside added to the basic boat weight.

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 09:02:25 AM by james johnson
Thanks for everybody's advice, i decided that a jaguar 21 with a lift keel would be a better choice for towing. Anybody selling one?

Posted on 30/6/2003 at 06:52:15 PM by John Curtis
According to the sales brochure my Jag 25 (a drop keel version) weights 1791 Kg or if you are old like me 3950lbs so a Land Rover should tow it fine.
I think your problem will not be pulling it, but if you want to trail/sail how will you get the mast stepped. Mine is taken out by crane!! It is quite a weight and I wouldn't fancy trying to do it myself. You will need some sort of "A" frame and suitable winches or a few brawney Australians (not my scene).  Otherwise cannot recommend the "25" enough.

Posted on 30/6/2003 at 10:13:10 PM by James Johnson
Thanks for your advice John, as for the mast i think i can rig a device from the front of a trailer using a winch. As far as i am aware the mast sits on a hinged plate and doesnt go into the cabin. It looks as if it will hinge backwards until of course it reaches the coachroof. Is your mast fitting similar?

Posted on 1/7/2003 at 10:07:35 PM by John Curtis
James, yes my mast sounds just like yours. It is supported by a post which forms part of the bulkhead.
By the way the brochure for a Catalina 25, the American version of the Jag, shows one being launched on a trailer but there is no indication of how they got the mast up! Good Luck!!!

Posted on 7/7/2003 at 12:04:53 AM by PATRICK THOMAS
My boat is only a J22, but has taller racing mast, and after a number of trials, errors and breakages, I can now raise it very neatly single handed; email me or phone, patrick.thomas @ virgin.net; 01600 750444 if you want info.

175. J25 BILGE KEEL RACING HANDICAP
Posted on 30/6/2003 at 10:40:26 PM by Mark Ingall
Does anyone have an approved PY handicap for a J25 Twin/Bilge keels ? We are racing at 1160 - but suspect that this might be for a single keel and making our life somewhat difficult !!
The RYA don't seem to list it as yet - claiming 'not enough information'  Many Thanks

Posted on 1/7/2003 at 11:14:27 AM by Steve Alexander
I think the 1160 figure is correct as it is the one I have been given at Portchester SC. It doesn't seem right though, virtually every race I enter there are boats with higher handicaps regularly finishing ahead of me on elapsed time, never mind adjusted time for handicap!
Having said that, most of our races seem to take place in light winds and relatively strong tides so its not really surprising a J25 with bilge keel struggles. If you have any luck raising your handicap I'd be pleased to hear about it.

Posted on 1/7/2003 at 06:03:11 PM by Paul
I have the RYA tables for 2000 (the last year in which the Jaguar 25 figured) and the "recorded number" given then was 1165 for a twin keel with inboard engine and folding prop.
I suppose the answer is for all of us who race to ensure that clubs submit annual returns to the RYA and provided they get enough they will reinstate a recorded number for the J25.
The 2000 tables also list 1098 for a fin keel Jaguar 27 with a fixed 3 blade prop and 1168 for the Jaguar 22. The 21 is still in the 2003 table at 1108, a change from 1116 in 2000 which I am sure was more accurate....
As Steve says, I think a lot depends on conditions. In the Jaguar 21 we need flattish water and light winds to win, so that must be why all the races we do seem to be in a F5 with a lumpy sea!

Posted on 1/7/2003 at 05:25:59 PM by Mark Ingall
Thanks - looks like we may have to stick with it for this year ! I'll try to get the boat measured here in Plymouth next year and see if that will help. The RYA site claim not to have enough results in to supply a formal indication. Perhaps we should bombard them with some higher figures ! I think that the 1160 figure is likely to be a catch all J25 one. Mark Ingall

176. J27 STEPS
Posted on 8/7/2003 at 11:43:26 AM by Gordon Harris
I have just replaced the steep and dangerous steps on our J27. The new unit uses the same floor space but provides full length footstep even when descending frontwards. It also has built-in storage for daily trash and water plus whatever. The old steps hospitalises my wife and we have always disliked them. Anyone interested can e-mail or phone me or come and look.01473 438165 Ipswich.

Posted on 8/7/2003 at 11:55:41 AM by Jeremy Knight
Are you able to take a digital photo at all. I think lots of people would be interested.

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 08:11:58 PM by Gordon Harris
Have digital photo, will jpeg it to reasonable size and send to Laurie for distribution if he agrees?

177. J27 MAINSAIL SIZE
Posted on 10/7/2003 at 09:58:49 AM by bernadette
we had a comfortable sail back with just our genoa on saturday. solace overtook us at one point (doh!) with the main up as well. we noticed how much smaller it is than ours and wondered if it is the original size. i have always thought our boat to be overcanvassed. david thinks this may be because of the mythical lee/weather helm problem.(which we don't have).
any thoughts?

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 09:36:05 PM by Colin Bishop
Some interesting points here. I have a J25 and this year moved the dinghy from under the cockpit to the forepeak to give more room for my crew in the quarterberth. This did affect the trim and we found the boat to be more responsive and faster in light airs. On the other hand the mast was down over the winter and I got a professional rigger to set it up after launching so the improvement may be down to that or a combination of the two. Strange things boats.

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 12:20:07 AM by hilary
I understand that there are 2 rig types, standard or tall rig. I think we have a tall rig as maybe do you. Whizzy Paul in Solace may have a standard rig.

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 06:59:59 PM by bernadette
hi hilary, i think it's stewart in solace! what is the advantage of the different set ups? i often feel we need to reef 4 comfort although david tends to want to throw out as much sail as poss. hours are spent trimming and tweaking to perfection. our genoa is pretty big too so when the wind is set right we hammer along with just that when i'm around. the boat seems nicely balanced to me as with twin keels it is thought to be a little heavy in the stern!

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 08:38:13 PM by Geoff
Hi Bernadette,
Essentially, the relative positions of the centre of effort of the sail plan and the centre of lateral resistance of the underwater hull form control the balance of the boat.
I 'm not quite sure why 2 different rigs would have been made available unless the centres of lateral resistance are different on the two hull forms (fin and bilge keelers).
It is possible that the centre of resistance of the fin keeler is deeper than that of the bilge keeler and that the taller rig was produced to compensate for this.
If that's the case, I would have guessed that the shorter rig has a longer foot on the mainsail - to maintain the overall sail area - and that therefore the centre of effort is lower and further aft. Likewise I would have assumed that the headsails on the shorter rig were/are a slightly different shape from the headsails on the tall rig to correct the centre of effort
Does any one know if that's true?
Fore and aft weight movement will also affect the position of the centre of resistance of the hull. It will also affect the amount of hull in the water and therefore induced drag. In general, the further forward the weight is the better.
As Dave, Hil and I discovered last weekend, the Jag 27 hull is surprisingly sensitive to the movement of weight around the boat - I was acting as figurehead on the pulpit to keep the engine exhaust skin fitting out of the water. Had I been sitting on the pushpit, boat speed, hull drag and weather helm would all have been adversely affected; we would also probably have sunk due to the amount of water coming in through the exhaust fitting!

Posted on 10/7/2003 at 10:33:32 PM by Hilary
Yes, I know its Stuart.... sorry Whizzy Stuart! And what can I add Geoff! Skin fitting is now out, and new one to be inserted next weekend.

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 09:42:03 AM by Whizzy Stuart
Hi All  The reason I was in a bit of a hurry is that young James had a bucket full of homework to do when we got home. Solace did us proud and we had a brilliant sail back to the Hamble. Regarding rigs, I did notice as I was rafted up against Barcarole that my mast was considerably taller. As for the sail size, my feeling is that it might be smaller than it could be. It doesn't reach either the top of the mast or the end of the boom.

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 11:19:04 AM by Geoff
Sometimes I suffer from verbal diarrhoea for which apologies! After I'd posted my last message, I started mucking about on the one of the Catalina sites and came across the specs for the C27 / C270 rigs which are

Standard Rig
Main Rated 150 sq.ft.
100% Fores'l 190 sq.ft.
Total Area 340 sq.ft.
I 34.00'
J 11.25'
P 28.66'
E 10.50'

Tall Rig
Main Rated 144 sq.ft.
100% Fores'l 220 sq.ft.
Total Area 364 sq.ft.
I 36.00'
J 12.20'
P 29.66'
E 9.66'

Tends to confirm my guess that the standard main is shorter and fatter (oh alright - lower aspect ratio!) than the tall main (I think P is luff and E is foot of main) and that the No.1 is also different (I think I is total height of and J is Foot of foretriangle)
Looking at line drawings of the 2 hulls the CLRs will be different but not enough to explain why they produced two rigs.
However, I'm a nosey old sod so I've e-mailed Catalina to ask them the question directly - watch this space!

Posted on 11/7/2003 at 10:35:16 AM by Barcarole
Surly it can't be true that I've got stunted growth. Maybe I am not as tall as you, but I think I am a normal height - its you thats lanky.

Posted on 14/7/2003 at 04:01:30 PM by bernadette
hi geof, thanks for all the technical stuff. our sail is not only taller but fatter too! beating back from island harbour on sunday, we had two reefs in (david only wanted one) and our sail looked to be the size of stuart's. the boat sailed really well despite our sailing into both wind and tide. i personally feel, purely through observation and no technical knowledge, that we rarely need all the sail that we have on a 27' boat!

178. J25 GEL COAT
Posted on 13/7/2003 at 07:51:51 PM by Russ Hardman
I have a white jag 25 MK2 circa 1985, white in colour. I need to make some minor gel coat repairs to the hull. The question being is it white or some other shade?

Posted on 14/7/2003 at 12:06:09 AM by Jeremy Knight
This is a difficult one. There are many shades of white, and matching up is difficult, even on a new boat. By the time the sun and salt have done their worst, the job is even more difficult. I believe there are resin suppliers who will mix up a gel coat to match. You could try SP Systems on the IOW (Newport) who may be able to point you in the right direction

179. J27 HOLDING TANK
Posted on 14/7/2003 at 04:07:37 PM by Grahame Lloyd
Has anyone fitted a holding tank to a J27. If so where and all the rest of the unsavoury details please!

Posted on 14/7/2003 at 04:30:44 PM by Jeremy Knight
I just took mine out. It was under the forward seat of the dinette. Horible thing, and with so few places to pump out I really couldn't see the point. Besides - I guessed that one day I would need to service the pump - and that was a jobbie I didn't fancy!

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 08:44:36 AM by Dick Hicks
I have considered this, and as I already have partitioned the space under the forward dinette seat for storage, the other place would be under the starboard forward bunk. The only snag is that both seacocks for the toilet are here, which is convenient for the inlet & exit but as I have ball valves which intrude well into the space, the tank would be quite small with difficult access to the seacocks. What I would like to do is to replace the seacocks with Blakes seacocks, possibly repositioning them for easier access and then you would have reasonable space for a decent sized tank. The tank would probably have to be specially made to suit the space - and to get it in!
Already several countries insist on holding tanks and I can see it coming to UK soon. They would have to be plumbed so that you could either pump out at sea or pump out at a marina. So Jeremy, DON'T throw away your tank! - you might be refitting it!
Alternatively, if you want to get rid of it, I'll have it and I'll make it fit my boat!

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 10:21:49 AM by Jeremy Knight
Sorry, already threw the tank away. I did consider pumping out at sea, but the impacts of sewage are just as bad unless you are more that 12miles offshore.
You are right that the EPA have looked at proposals for the fitting of holding tanks to all boats. However there were rejected about 3 months ago, the reasons being:
1) Lack of shoreside pump out facilities
2) The environmental impact of puming at sea being just as damaging
3) Difficulties of policing
The plans have now been shelved for the foreseeable future.
You may ask how I heard all this. One of my colleagues at work sat on the advisory committee to the EPA on this project!
Strongly advise holding on to your money for the moment.

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 11:14:38 AM by Grahame Lloyd
Government agencies are well known for looking through telescopes with a blind eye and Defra/EPA seems to be no exception. It is only because of pressure from the EC that our beaches are now becoming more acceptable. It defies all logical belief that waste matter does not have more chance of being broken down at sea than in the Hamble river (or any other Harbour). Even 1 or 2 miles off shore must be preferable.
How is it that so many countries now insist on holding tanks - but Britain discovers a unique inability to police the requirement! While no controls exist there will be no pressure on local councils to provide pumpout facilities. Even modest pumpout charges will pay for the facility. Where there is a will there is a way - against all the pundits projections London's traffic is now moving . . .

Posted on 16/7/2003 at 10:45:43 AM by Jeremy Knight
You might find these DIY tank instructions useful.
DIY Wood and Epoxy holding tank

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 05:16:03 PM by Jeremy Knight
I think their thinking was that people on their morings would be better to use the public facilities nearby. That was the waste is treated before it enters the natural system.
The problem with pumping out just off shore is that on many parts of the coast it just ends up being washed ashore. There was a concern that some waste would transfer from being put into the sewage system (ie the loo) to being pumped out with in 12 miles. Thus leading to the situation getting worse, all be it only marginally.
They also took into account that the majority of pleasure vessels rairly venture outside the magic 12 miles (not sure where the 12 came from).
So on that basis the proposals were rejected. Thus far I have some sypathy withthe arguements. Spain for example has gone down the route of compulsory holding tanks and in some places is now having blue flag problems attributed to the new policy. Many mediteranian countries have also gone down the tank route (greece for eg) and had a good experience. The lack of tidal conditions is though to be a factor here.
Contrast this with the initiatives that apply to commercial shipping. Here holding tanks are required, pump out has to be provided by the port operators, tank wash is only alowed outside the channel.... A real solution to the problem I'm sure you agree, and one that could be replicated in the leisure market.
The real problem is that there was not the will power to require the compulsory fitting of waste handling facilities ashore. This would probably require a station fitted by the local council in marinas and so on. It was felt that this would be too much of a burden on the local councils and tax payers.
I have to agree that this is an awful issue. On the one hand there is not the political will to provide waste handling - not a problem solely in the UK. This has prompted a knee jerk reaction in a number of countries that make holding tanks compulsory. This in turn has led to a deterioration in some local coastal settings.
But if you really want to talk environmental damage, what about antifouling. I am thinking about using the copper gel coat system this winter to try and cut down on the emmissions from my bottom. But it is the devils own business getting hold of any really reliable evedence of the effectiveness and toxicity of the differing systems.

Posted on 17/7/2003 at 10:47:11 AM by Steve Alexander
Your words, not mine Jeremy!
On the subject of waste though, has anyone come across a composting type of toilet suitable for a boat. Surely that would be the most environmentally friendly solution.

Posted on 17/7/2003 at 05:00:20 PM by marv adkin
there is an article in one of the sailing mags detailing a modification on a porto-potti type toilet, utilizing biodegadable toilet liquid and a facility to pump thro a skin fitting when at sea. any comments?

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 08:43:02 AM by Jeremy Knight
I think I saw that too. In principle the porta pottie sounds like a solution to me. i know they are not that pleasant, but their not like the old Elsens of old. I was all set to fit one. There is a station at our marina, so it could easily be emptied there, and the waste treated effectively.
But then I heard something about Bio-detergents. The report was on Radio 4 and it was saying that there was a chemical in them that was leading to Muscles developing fully functioning genitals of both sexes. It appears that muscles normally do have both sets of organs, but only 1 set are operational at any 1 time. They then swap the functionality of the organs depending on their whim, from time to time. So one week the muscle may be female ant the next week male. When exposed to these chemicals (can't remember the name of them) then because both sets are functioning they self fertilise. But the baby muscles (musclettes?) die within minutes of berth.
Of course the effect on just 1 species is hardly conclusive. But it does make you think. I think I am coming to the conclusion that a porta potty with no thru hulls might be the solution. If it can be used for several days then the potty could be emptied for proper treatement in your home port. I beloeve you can even empty them down the loo on land(?). And there would be no need for councils and marinas to invest in expensive handling equipment.
This way, and with better fouling treatement, my impact on the environment would be much improved.
Does anyone have experience with a potty. Are there various makes. Which are good. Are they really OK to use, or is my other half going to have a fit?

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 09:14:19 AM by Grahame Lloyd
The chemical family is phenols, some of which are endocrine disrupters. Oysters, I think, were the unfortunate (fortunate?) creatures.
So, Jeremy, if you are planning a romantic evening watch out for small oysters!

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 12:27:37 AM by Jeremy Knight
That it! Phenols and endocrine thingamejigs. Do you know where I can get some - If I take enough they may improve my love life!

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 12:36:40 AM by Jeremy Knight
Oh! and I shall look at Oysters in a new light now. I know they are expensive, but you do get a boy AND a girl - Buy one get one free, thats what I call value for money. Mmmm yum yum!

Posted on 23/7/2003 at 04:37:56 PM by bernadette
met a man with a macgreggor recently at yarmouth who claimed his porta potty the bane of his life. HOWEVER, he knew of an american model thet discharged at sea but was impossible to get hold of in the uk. he tried to import one but the company would only oblige in quantity. i suggested that if he did so he sold the rest on ebay or some such. he seemed pretty desperate (well you would if you had to keep rowing ashore for a wee!)
there are far worse things in the sea than faeces and urine. our heavy sea and tides smash it all up for fish food anyway and what about all the stuff from fish and other marine creatures. of course we must be considerate in marinas and rivers. loo paper and other things should never go in the sea.
having said that i'm rather more worried about the rusting nuclear subs abandoned on the coastal russian wastes since the end of the cold war.

Posted on 17/7/2003 at 11:30:00 AM by Hilary
Now there's a challenge for the Centre for Alternative Technology ..... http://www.cat.org.uk.
There is a page about small scale sewage systems, straw bales are involved ......

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 10:19:56 AM by Grahame Lloyd
Irrespective of the legality, I still feel uncomfortable pumping out raw sewage, particularly in the Hamble and surrounding areas. The standard location for the holding tank in the US is the forward dinette locker where a 9 US gallon tank is located. Oddly, the Americans are quite strict about having holding tanks and even insist on having a pad-locked change-over valve but still manage to poison Lake Michigan with industrial waste!
An alternative location is the starboard V berth locker. As my fresh water tank is under the V berth and holds a meagre 12 gals I carry another 11 gals in two breakers - one of which lives in this locker - without interfering with the loo pipes. It occurs to me that a standard 5.5 gal breaker could be modified easily to act as a holding tank and installed in the V berth locker. Plastimo do a holding tank kit with a moulded tank which fits around the loo base. But possibly not around the rather eccentric SL400! However, the kit is to European standards but, as you can imagine, rather limited in capacity.
Jeremy's J27, I believe, is an ex-charter boat which is probably why it has a holding tank. As he has discarded his tank, perhaps he should auction it! He appears to have 2 possible bidders already.

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 01:19:50 PM by Dick Hicks
Like Grahame, I also feel uncomfortable about pumping out sewage, particularly in the River Deben, which is why I am considering it. I am going to Holland for fortnights cruise in 3 weeks time, and am considering getting a Porta-Potti whilst on the inland waters.

180. PICTURE QUESTION
Posted on 14/7/2003 at 04:48:08 PM by Steve Alexander
Please excuse the IT illiteracy but how does one put a picture with a posting?

Posted on 14/7/2003 at 08:29:05 PM by Anonymous

Hi Steve
You can link any picture that is actually on the web, either your own webspace or other people's! For instance, I have included in this post the picture of my boat from the Jaguar yachts website by putting the image's URL - which in this case is: http://www.paul.absolon.unisonplus.net/jasamats4.jpg - in the "image URL" box below. (I must change this picture, every time I see it I notice that the jib is not trimmed properly...)
To find the image URL of any picture, try right clicking on the image and copying down what appears in the Properties dialogue.
If anyone does not have webspace and wants to post a picture, just send me the picture attached to an email (preferably as a JPG and not too big!). I will be happy to put it on an unlinked page and send back to you the Image URL for you to put in the box when you make your posting.
Paul (webmaster)
P.S. - JOA members, send me pictures of your boats anyway, we could have a "members boats" section on the website! If you are not a member, why not join, contact Laurie via the link on the website!

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 08:48:01 AM by Dick Hicks
Paul, I'll send some pictures of Esprit de Mer for you to put on the website - but think they are fairly large - can they be made smaller for emailing to you?

Posted on 16/7/2003 at 07:46:20 PM by Paul
Hi Dick, what I aim for for the web is a JPEG of a size about 700x500 pixels with as little compression as possible. For some reason, some photos can be compressed by about 50% and still look OK, others look terrible with 20%! I aim for file sizes about 25K for pictures so that they load more quickly but don't always manage that.
To make smaller for emailing I would suggest resizing and sending as a JPEG (but with no compression, I will sort that out using a programme called Fireworks). You can do this easily with Paint in later versions.
However if anyone has got photos and does not want to do the above, send them anyway, its better to have them than not!!

Posted on 17/7/2003 at 08:55:04 AM by Laurie
-strange, I've been trying to get Dick to send some piccies for the 27 page for ages......? Aren't those members boat pages?

Posted on 17/7/2003 at 09:11:10 AM by Dick Hicks
Laurie, I've only just got round to it and also eventually figured out how to do it!
Sent them last night from home direct to Paul, hope they arrive OK, if not email me and I'll try again.

181. J22 SPINAKER POLES
Posted on 14/7/2003 at 09:42:44 PM by Karen Maclagan
I currently own a J22 and wondered about spinaker poles. Does anyone know of any for sale? As I have furling gear on mine, I cannot use the cruising chute the way it was previously set up. The only answer would seem to be a pole. Any suggestions gratefully received.

Posted on 15/7/2003 at 08:54:06 AM by Dick Hicks
Why can't you use a cruising chute? You don't normally use a pole for a cruising chute and the tack is usually on a rope strop which is fixed somewhere right in the bows. Using the strop means you can adjust it easily so it flies above the pulpit.

182. AVOIDING ACTION
Posted on 15/7/2003 at 10:51:01 AM by Steve Alexander

Just trying out my new skills in IT by posting a picture. I found this on the Catalina message board - who said big ships can't take avoiding action!

Posted on 22/7/2003 at 01:28:16 PM by Colin Bishop
My carrier didn't bother...

Posted on 24/7/2003 at 10:30:29 AM by Steve Alexander
Thought it might strike a chord with you Colin!

183. SOGGY RUDDERS
Posted on 16/7/2003 at 10:19:50 AM by Jeremy Knight
I found the following artical that may be of interest on an American site. It also had instructional pictures - if you are interested in looking at the original with the pictures the URL is
http://www.diy-boat.com/Pages/Archives/links/2002_1/sailrig/sailrig.html
I (think) I have put a link at the bottom of this message so that you can click through.

Steps to Repair Soggy Rudders
Q: I recently noticed a crack along the bottom edge of the rudder on my 1981 CS 33 that extends about 7.6cm (3") up the leading edge of the rudder. The rudder is foam filled and drips water from the crack when the boat is hauled. The rest of the rudder appears sound. What steps would you recommend to repair this problem?
Bill Wilson, Kincardine, Ontario
A: Most rudders gradually absorb water and it's not a big deal until a crack develops, usually due to frost heave. A foam-filled rudder tends to suffer more damage as it holds more moisture. Freezing temps crush the foam inside the rudder, and heave and crack the outside skin. This often causes separation of the seam where the port and starboard halves of the outside skin are joined. The usual fix follows. Be sure to protect the eyes with goggles and wear a properly fitted dust mask when cutting or sanding. If you decide to have it fixed professionally, the job represents somewhere between 16 and 32 hours of labor at most yards. You can save some money if you remove and reinstall the rudder yourself.
STEP 1
Evaluate the rudder's overall condition. Use a moisture meter to determine how wet the rudder is. Verify how badly delaminated the outside skin is from the foam core by percussive sounds of the rudder with a hammer (a surveyor or the local yard can help with this). The goal is to determine how much of the foam core is wet and needs to be removed, and the extent (cost and labor) of the repair.
STEP 2
Remove the rudder from the boat.
STEP 3
Cut open a "window" in the side of the rudder using a router or circular saw, removing just the outer glass skin to gain access to the wet core. Dry the deteriorated or wet foam core. Use heat lamps to accelerate drying. Damp foam will eventually dry when exposed to air, but it can take a long time. Inspect the internal metal (usually mild steel) web that attaches the rudder blade to the rudder shaft. Look for excessive corrosion or cracked welds, and repair as needed. (Refer to DIY 2000-#3 issue for instructions on replacing interior rudder tangs.)
STEP 4
Replace the wet core. This can be done with more A+B polyurethane foam or with solid polyester resin and chopped glass filler (if you don't mind adding a bit of weight). Another option is to fillwith epoxy resin thickened with colloidal silica to a peanut butter consistency. Now that you have the rudder opened, check the rudderstock for corrosion. Water trapped in the laminate can cause crevice corrosion. You don't want to go to the trouble to make the repairs to the rudder laminate and have the stock fail later.
STEP 5
Re-skin the rudder. Sand or grind the entire outside, or at least the side with the opening plus any cracked areas of the outside skin, to bare glass and laminate at least a couple of layers of new glass and resin (1808 stitchmat works well). Also wrap fiberglass around the fore and aft seam between the two halves. Fill and fair as needed using a thick mixture of epoxy resin and microballons. Prime coat with an epoxy primer for re-application of antifouling paint.
STEP 6
Seal the rudder shaft to prevent water re-entering the rudder blade where the blade meets the shaft. I recommend digging out the fiberglass laminate adjacent to the shaft to a depth of about 6mm
(1/4") wide. Fill this small circular trench around the shaft with 3M 5200 or 3M 4200 sealant. This makes a much better seal because it's flexible and less prone to cracking during temperature extremes than the original metal-to-glass interface.
STEP 7
Reinstall the rudder.
Soggy Rudders Page

Posted on 16/7/2003 at 11:11:08 AM by Hilary
Very useful! Particularly for those of us with "sr"syndrome!
Salve NAuta has been out of the water since Bembridge. Dave realised that the fast growing leak was due to the leaking exhaust skinfitting. We zipped back to LAngstone above the waves with the help of Dave, Bil Gepump, and Geoff elegantly draped over the pulpit, to keep the 'ole clear of the water. Had a bit of lee helm.
Both this and the gas skin fitting are replaced. ( What a faff... due to lack of inner working space between fitting and the floor of the cockpit locker above)
Whilst high and dry DAve drilled a hole in the base of the rudder to see has happened during 7 weeks in the water. A pint of water. The hole is sealed. SN goes back in the water any minute now. We will definitely be cracking the rudder open in the winter.
LOve the flower pot idea!

184. FLOWER POT HEATER
Posted on 16/7/2003 at 10:35:50 AM by Jeremy Knight
This American site really is a font of information and ideas. This one (Click the link below) seems great for boats that don't have heating, or for those of us who don't like the noise and battery drain of an Eberspacher.
I'm going to give it a try - I'll let you know how it works.
Flower pot heater

Posted on 20/7/2003 at 05:55:00 PM by gordon harris
It works fine, here people just upturn a pot over a low gas.The old boys at Waldringfield have used it for years.

185. J25 ANTI FOULING
Posted on 17/7/2003 at 05:04:24 PM by marv adkin
any body got the sq/m area for the jag 25 fin keel (fixed) much obliged marv adkin

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 08:06:39 AM by Dick Hicks
I use 2½ litres per coat for my J27, so I guess the J25 is slightly less.

Posted on 21/7/2003 at 05:25:59 PM by marv adkin
cheers dick, your approximation was spot on . it took 2l exactly for one coat, but i had a spare 1l left from last so i could give main areas/leading edges, a second coat. much obliged marv.

186. J27 REVIEW
Posted on 18/7/2003 at 02:54:53 PM by Jeremy Knight
You may be interested in the following review I found in a current edition of a US magazine:
"The 6,662 catalina 27s built between 1971 and 1991 can be found sailing just about everywhere in North America; the biggest concentrations are in Florida, California, New England, Cheapspeake Bay and the Great Lakes. This classic cruiser/racer is more of a family cruiser than an all out racer, but a very active class association keeps the one-design scean going, and the boat has an excellent PHRF record.
Even Dennis Connor has suggested this boat might be good for him to race. The Americas cup legend is n avid PHRF competitor, but he demures at the unfair scrutiny he feels his boats receive from handicapers. Not long ago Conner stated to this magazine that because the Catalina 27 is so popular in Souther California, and because the boats are so even in performance, it might be the one boat in which he could receive a fair rating.
Prices of used Catilina 27 rang from $5,000 to $20,000"
Maybe we should invite Dennis to our next rally!

187. J25 WATER IN THE HULL
Posted on 18/7/2003 at 03:55:37 PM by Andrew Goodman
My Jaguar 25 "Breezer" (Formaly Tricia)built in 83 gets water in between the inner and outer mouldings of the hull. Ive tried sealing around the rubbing strip and all fittings but the water still gets in. Has anybody had this problem or could you suggest where the water may get in. All the exposed parts of the inner hull remain dry ie, in the lockers.

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 04:09:38 PM by Jeremy Knight
When you say that water gets in between the inner and outer mouldings, do you mean in the foam core of the hull (in which case panic) or do you mean it gets behind the cabin moulding that forms the seats and so on (In which case I am not sure I have an answer).

Posted on 23/7/2003 at 04:12:03 PM by Laurie
as per original, there shouldn't be a foam core in the hull.......?
Stanchion bases, have these been looked at; shroud plates, windows.....?

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 09:31:11 PM by Andrew Goodman
Yes, the water is trapped between the cabin mouldings and outer hull. To let the water escape and to mop up Ive cut two small access holes with the use of a "dremmel" in the floor of the inner moulding. Although water makes its way to the lowest point, none of the lockers or areas of the outer hull that are veiwable are wet.
Is the only joint around the rubbing strip?

Posted on 18/7/2003 at 11:30:17 PM by paul
I have heard of this happening to a jaguar 21, then the water ingress was tracked down to loose bottom rudder fittings on the transom. Although these are fitted with bolts that go right through both the outer hull moulding and the thin inner moulding, due to being loose water was seeping in between the two mouldings and reappearing in the cabin from the screw holes fixing the step in place!

188. J27 RE-ENGINE
Posted on 22/7/2003 at 00:32:09 AM by John
I am considering replacing the 9HP Stuart Turner Sole at the end of this season. Engine options are Yanmar 1GM10, etc. Your comments please

Posted on 22/7/2003 at 12:08:53 AM by Dick Hicks
I have the PERKINS Perama, which is now sold as the Volvo Penta 2020, about 18HP. Plenty of power. I would go for the BETA, NANNI or Volvo Penta range. You would be better off with a larger engine, you won't regret it, hoever this depends on your budget. Get several quotes fromn various suppliers and compare carefully - especially warranty. Don't forget you will almost certainly have to upgrade your Exhaust system with new hoses, Waterlock & Silencer, possibly a Gooseneck on the transom as well. Check out your local supplier for service, spares etc. You may also have to replace your prop shaft, prop and stern gear for a diesel engine. (If you do, make sure you fit a Non Drip modern stern gland - well worth it - no more water in the bilges!) You also may need a new fuel filler cap and fuel tank, try Tek Tanks who do plastic translucent tanks so you can always see how much fuel you have. You'll also need new fuel hoses and a Water/Fuel filter.
Are you DIY or getting it installed professionally?
My fuel tank is large at 17 gallons, but is installed behind the engine and if I ever had to remove it, I reckon the engine would have to come out first!! I'ts a good place though as you leave the lazarette clear for storage and the weight is further from the ends.
Good luck and keep us informed,

Posted on 22/7/2003 at 11:11:34 AM by bernadette
we replaced our volvo penta with a beta 13hp. this was fixed to the existing sail drive and is really good. we shopped around extensively and even this same engine varied in price by a really huge amount! david will give the tec spec if required.

Posted on 22/7/2003 at 02:31:43 PM by Grahame Lloyd
I have just had (in the last month) a new Bata Marine 20HP installed, married to a saildrive. I am delighted with it. It is quiet (relatively speaking!) and smooth. Cruising speed at 2000 revs is 5.5 knots. Fuel consumption is approx 4.5 hours per gallon depending on conditions. However, I had a 13hp in my previous boat, like Bernadette, and was also very pleased.
As your current engine is not a sail drive you will probably need a new shaft and propellor together with hoses and filters etc which can add to the bill quite considerably! As a budget price, a 13 hp Beta will probably come to about £4500 (don't forget the dreaded VAT) If you can stretch to a 20 HP that is icing on the cake - but by no means essential.
Depending where you are I can recommend TS Marine on the Hamble. They fitted both my engines.

Posted on 22/7/2003 at 01:31:02 PM by gordon harris
We had a nanni 21hp installed 2 years ago.Only £200 more than the 14hp.If you are in East Anglia we can recommend a supplier/istaller.We are very pleased with the engine,cruising at 2200 revs (3600 max) we do 6knots in benign conditions at 4 hours/gallon.We always have reserve power, but we don't think it is over-powered, just luxurious, like a V8 car.Whatever you do, shop aroud,we were quoted anywhere up to 3800 for the engine and 4000 for the labour, plus VAT.We paid 2800 and 400 plus vat.Yes 400!! For a very professional job.There are possible extras depending on your own installation, prop and shaft,exhaust etc..Our chap removed the old Volvo, replaced bearers etc in one day.When the engine,shaft and prop arrived he installed and tested in one day.We have now done 250 faultless hours.

Posted on 23/7/2003 at 04:00:36 PM by bernadette
our 13hp cruises at the same speed, revs, etc but was our choice because of price and because all our motor boating, engine orientated friends insist that a diesel engine must be made to work hard. also when our boat was towed through the harbour entrance by a police launch (pre new engine) at little faster than usual, our boat started to plane! having said that, if we had got the bargain grahame did we'd have had the bigger engine......

Posted on 23/7/2003 at 07:58:19 PM by dave clark
What about the weight factor in all this, I thought balance about the centre point is a bit of a critical factor ?. Anyway me an Hils (as us Cornish chaps say) had a great time at the Jag gathering so thanks for that you folks out there. Even if we did nearly sink on the way back, before I issued a Pan-Pan I used the pan to bail us out with "gusto" and my (future) Bro in Law volunteered to sit on the bow all the way back to keep the back end out of the water just enough to enable me to bail faster than the water came in......remember the water leak I was asking about some time ago ????

Posted on 24/7/2003 at 06:08:49 PM by Geoff H
Dave, me old mate you're right! To get the best out of the boat, weight factor needs to be taken into account. It would be interesting to know (well I think it would anyway!) what engine was originally specified, what weight it was and how much all the engines that have been talked about in this thread vary from the original.
If you then replace yours with an engine lighter than the original you can add in some compensating weights (if the difference is significant).
Having said all that I doubt whether the difference in speed will be noticeable unless you put in a plastic engine and fill the bilges with lead!!

Posted on 23/7/2003 at 09:57:11 PM by G.H
The 21hp engine is 60kg less than the old 10hp volvo, carry more water

189. J25 TOP DECK/FADING
Posted on 24/7/2003 at 12:40:17 AM by marv adkin
Has anybody attempted renovation of fading top deck yet ie the chalking effect, with polishing/waxing etc. I have just recieved a review on a product called Poliglow which appears to be one solution. has anybody any views/experience etc or are we down to painting cheers marv/Live Wire.