thespyglass | version 8 'the hours' | minor atheism/humanism debate

The opinion (for that is what it is) that "the bible is true because the bible says it is true" simply doesn't hold up, just like the opinion that "god exists because the bible says he does".

I defend your right to hold certain beliefs but you have to admit that there is a possibility that you are incorrect - as you say, there is a difference between 'belief' and 'knowledge' - just as I admit that there is a possibility that I am incorrect, however unlikely I may think that is.

I've liked your quotes in the way of explaining the gospels' stance on the crucifixion and surrounding matters, though, since I really can't pretend to remember all of the Christian bible at all.

I wasn't that clear on some of Gibson's inspiration for his depiction of things like Satan, so thanks for clearing stuff up for us laymens throughout the thread!
:D

Yet many people believe Jesus to have been 'just a man' (whatever that means) - if they even accept he existed at all - and in their eyes the foundations of Christianity are far from 'solid rock'.
The fact that you believe something to be true doesn't make it so.

You've said before that the Christian bible is accepted historial fact but this is really dependent on who you speak to, whose writings have been allowed space in the public domain, and what biases have taken hold throughout history.

Historians generally don't deny that Christian writings have some basis in fact - it is unlikely that such extensive writings came into being without factual inspiration - but they also make this allowance for every other religious text to varying degrees.

It is simply that for the last thousand years here in the 'Western world', Christianity has been the dominant religion, hence the doctrine that most Western scholars (of all disciplines) grew up as followers of, the one that informed their world-views, and the one they concentrated on when attempting proof of religious (in)validity, depending on their opinions.

I know that my atheist stance will likely lead you to dismiss the following, since atheism is bias of sorts, though I believe it makes me especially objective when assessing the various merits (or demerits!) of various religious stances.

But I believe (and this does not make it fact) that their is no 'higher' consciousness in relation to this earth than that of humans, and that then disallows any subscription to a particular religion.
Though it does not prevent me seeing and utilising 'lessons' from all religions that I deem useful, important or interesting.

I believe that religion is the product of the strong and admirable human desire that evolved (as our intellect did) to make sense of the world, to understand more, to comfort ourselves in difficult times, and to find 'good' ways to live.

I also understand that given all these things, if one has grown up with a 'default' religion then it is not only one's intellect or 'loyalty' to a particular deity that ties people to religion.
It is their sense of connection to family, history, the world and humanity at large that makes it difficult to give up religion.

I mention this only because those 'connections' are also a product of humanism, which I count myself in 'agreement with', and therefore I understand much of the emotion religious people feel in connection with their religion.
(Just wanted to underline that I'm not attacking religious people, only asking questions!)

Humanism is born partly out of a huge sense of moral duty to (and hence a 'love' for) all humankind, something that most religious people will be familiar with.
Atheists care about and are interested in truth, but it is a spartan world-view - ie. one with few presuppositions and none that cannot be revised, in comparison with Christianity which is somewhat 'baroque' - so we are generally more comfortable with uncertainty.

We value the asking of questions without needing definitive answers!

It is about choice, freedom, education and respect for all people, a sentiment I just wanted to finish up with since it's a common misconception that atheists are somehow 'immoral' or 'evil'. (I have been called a 'devil worshipper', which couldn't be further from the truth - atheists worship nothing!)

Jesus as is written in the Christian bible represents many humanist philosophies, so we all have much in common!

-------------------------

POST 2

Thanks for replying cuddles! It's funny, we really do occupy opposite ends of the theology spectrum but I'm sure we'd agree on a lot of things.

Sort of true. Secular Humanists agree with atheists and think that there are only humans. There are people who might consider themselves Christian humanists too, or theist humanists. Humanism can be affirmed by either theistic or non-theistic world-views.

But humanism is about being concerned for humans as individuals and as a race, and doing what you can to improve the lives of people.
It isn't strict but based on a spirit of unity of and care for all humankind, which sounds very cheesy but it's a good idea that everyone lives like this - I'm sure most people who consider themselves 'Christian' do - and it really isn't much more complex than that at all.

That's what I meant by saying Christianity is 'baroque' by design; by believing in that many things, with no room for alteration or revision, it makes it difficult if not impossible to incorporate new ideas or new ways of thinking.
If you believe that the Christian God's way of thinking as written is the 'right' way of thinking and no other, you've backed yourself into a corner, haven't you?
Although your faith that this is the 'true' way to think probably means you don't worry about that, although IMO that's a pretty big act of faith.

But then I guess that's what it means to really be religious and is one of the reasons I could never be so; I couldn't assign faith to something I didn't know existed and I can decide for myself the 'right' way to think and my idea of it changes all the time.
(Of course many people decide what their way of thinking - or 'world-view' - is, and then find a religion they agree with.)

Now humans on the other hand definitely do exist and have huge potential. Faith in that potential and in the ability of people to do 'good', create, think, philosophise, advance... that is something I have a lot of faith in and a source of great joy.

Sort of true, atheists do think that there is nobody in control of their lives but themselves, and hence that there is no 'divine plan' or predestination.
I don't find anything scary about that - nobody should be afraid to take control of their own lives, make decisions or be in charge.

It means not looking to a deity for morality but working out for yourself (from a combination of educatiing yourself, parental influences, talking to others...) what you agree with... and being generally law-abiding too!
Although humanist activists push for reform in the law where they might consider it 'unjust', such as with illegality of gay marriage.
Humanists in general have a huge amount of respect for people as individuals as part of the human race.

As a result humanists (whether secular or not) think that people should take responsibility for the world, good or bad, and that we have the power to make things better.

Atheism considers giving up responsibility for your life and those of others to a deity dangerous thinking, since we don't think there is a god to take responsibility for us or 'absolve us of our sins'.

Well atheism isn't a religion*... but if there ever is nobody there, we have nobody, you're quite right, and as a result it is difficult being atheist sometimes.
It requires you to be strong enough to support yourself if it comes to that, or able to reason and think your way out of trouble, or to ask other people for help.

That human need for comfort is very strong and is one of the reasons I think people created the idea of an all-powerful being.

Belief in gods unites most people throughout history, whether it is the Egyptian god of the sun (the existance of whom would explain the sun, since there was no explanation for it at the time) or the Christian god (that explains the existance of the entire universe).

Ever since humans became conscious they have struggled to explain the world and it continues today... and so it should.
Atheists and Secular Humanists value rational thought, education, learning and the pursuit knowledge.

*the word "theism" means belief in the existance of god(s), so Christians are "theists", and "atheism" is the opposite of that, so "atheist" is generally taken to mean "not religious".

Well we have something in common, I'm not perfect either!
I don't think perfection actually exists in a universal sense, since it is completely subjective, so I wouldn't worry

I appreciate your comments loads too, thank you, it's really interesting and useful to talk to someone with such a different world-view, thanks for being patient with me!

My last words go to secularhumanism.org, just fyi:

"Democratic secular humanism has been a powerful force in world culture. Its ideals can be traced to the philosophers, scientists, and poets of classical Greece and Rome, to ancient Chinese Confucian society, to the Carvaka movement of India, and to other distinguished intellectual and moral traditions. Secularism and humanism were eclipsed in Europe during the Dark Ages, when religious piety eroded humankind's confidence in its own powers to solve human problems.

They reappeared in force during the Renaissance with the reassertion of secular and humanist values in literature and the arts, again in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries with the development of modern science and a naturalistic view of the universe, and their influence can be found in the eighteenth century in the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

Democratic secular humanism has creatively flowered in modern times with the growth of freedom and democracy. Countless millions of thoughtful persons have espoused secular humanist ideals, have lived significant lives, and have contributed to the building of a more humane and democratic world."
- continued...

© copyright acm 2004